three things to consider for the Berget Crew.

Feedback e debriefings from Berget 7.
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Brujo
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Post by Brujo » 06 Jul 2009, 07:44

I remember I was given clear heads up and ETA on the huge NATO assault on BC on Friday. By a certain ingame someone, not a GM though.
So all the forces civilian, red, yellow and gray could split defense in sectors and prepare for the attack.. made it interesting for NATO :D
B5 - Soviet VDV Battalion Commander
B6 - NATO Battalion Commander
B7 - Orlov's Plt CO
B8 - Poldavian 3rd Mountaineers
B10 - Poldavian 15th Sappers Commander
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Post by Tiger_1 » 06 Jul 2009, 09:39

Was that friday night? Becouse, we did not actually attack bashir then. What happend was bad planning from several people. You had a stack of players from all factions (except NATO) in the town (supposed to be "non hostile"). Then you had 2 NATO companys trying to solve missions around the city (one company clearing mines on the road, the other one blowing up Miners hut and the "old mines". Also we had units securing Travlers logde looking for a ORC fuel dump.
The problem came when there was Orlov forces at Travlers logde, and a firefight started. This involved about 2 companys of NATO forces. As they started to push on to their main objektivs, they were still having contact from the direction of bashir. Also, added to this was units of nato tropps that had gone off without orders, and not knowing what was actually going on (the missions of the companys in question), they marched to the sound of the guns, and the only place they really knew they would get a fight. BC. Also, tropps in contact from the companys trying to manouver around bashir got caught up in this. Leading to serveral of them also being classed as "acting without orders", that was ofcourse not true, as they were only reacting to events on the ground at the time.
Becouse an attack on bashir was not really part of the overall plan, in the end we had to go in with offgame messages to bring people out, and this did lead to some unfortunat episodes, that I am sure the innvolved parties remember well.
In the end, we managed to carry out the mission to destroy Miners hut and the old mines. The mineclearing mission was abandond during the periode we pulled forces back from bashir.
It is ofcourse bad when you need to go offgame to clear up things happening in the game, but now and again it is part of running a airsoft event. Things happen that nobody can plan for.
Also, bad idea to put 600+ people with guns within a few hundred meters of each other, and not expect them to end up in a firefight ;)
Apart from this and one more case of gamemasters having to step in on the tactial level (that I know of), the rest of the game was as berget crew pointed out NOT scripted, and we did not get offgame warnings of enemy operations. What we did have was some really good intel comming into HQ, and we used that to make sure we did not get hit. Also, we cant tell EVERYONE why we know things...intel is allways something to keep safe. Just thank your S2 and the other intel guys we had working for us, they did a great job.
"go to your God like a soldier!"

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Brujo
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Post by Brujo » 06 Jul 2009, 10:01

Ummm? I just wanted to point out that there was no GM information leak that I would know of, Tiger :)
B5 - Soviet VDV Battalion Commander
B6 - NATO Battalion Commander
B7 - Orlov's Plt CO
B8 - Poldavian 3rd Mountaineers
B10 - Poldavian 15th Sappers Commander
Airsoft Klub Salamander - Slovenia

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Post by tomy » 06 Jul 2009, 10:34

Majk wrote:hezi: You are wrong. There's only 2 persons from B-E in direct contact with all fraction CO's and managing the game flow. I'm one of them and I keep contact with the other (Spof) at all times during the game so I can say for sure what you are saying is not true. The game is not scripted in the way you describe and I'm absolutely sure all CO's can confirm. Now, I'm done argue with you.
I can confirm this. Once Orlov was given the Nuclear tactical briefcase bomb, he was never pushed into anything by Majk or Spof on how he should use it. We were given only the explanation on how to use it, how big of an area does it destroy. Spof and Majk even said they would not mind if we would destroy one of the "enemy" bases. They gave us a totally "free hand" in our decisions.

Since the political situation of Mr. Orlov was not going very well and we got a confirmation that the Mayor will fix the elections for the SRP, we decided to use the bomb as a blackmail device and sent a blackmail SMS message to the Mayor around friday midnight that if Orlov will not win the election, Bashir City will be destroyed by the Nuke. By saturday morning, we recieved no answer from the Mayor (he was probably thinking it was a joke or something), so we called Majk (crew) and said that we will place the bomb in Bashir city and extort the Mayor some more. The crew never changed our decision, nor did they suggest any alternations. They gave us - THE PLAYERS a total free hand on our idea of a possible nuclear destruction of Bashir city.

Once the word was brought to the Mayor by me (as a ORC runaway traitor, bringing salvation to Mayor and the City of Bashir :) ) the Mayor started to communicate with Orlov and you know the rest ( I will post the whole big story so you will all know what actually lead to the destruction of Bashir City).

During the last 2 hours in Bashir City, Majk was present at all times and I was personally updating him on the progress of the "bomb scenario" every 10-15 minutes. HE NEVER changed any of the ingame decisions and NEVER suggested any other possibilities, he let the gameflow as it was and as key roles made it to be (Orlov, Mayor, Banker, Arms dealer, me the bomb enginner...and others).

So this is to reconfirm that we never experienced any gameflow alternations by berget crew.

And on the story of Da bomb, more really funny things later... :)
B4 Rebel Merc CO
B5 Soviet QRF CO
B6 Merc pain in da ass
B7 Orlov's classmate

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Post by Tiger_1 » 06 Jul 2009, 12:58

Brujo: Sorry, not meant as a post against you, was more me using your refrence to the attack to explaine what happend ;)
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Post by Brujo » 06 Jul 2009, 13:25

Didn't really see it as an offensive post so no apology needed, I just sarcastically noted that you and Motorhead hold the highest word-count on these aftermath forums hehe. :)
B5 - Soviet VDV Battalion Commander
B6 - NATO Battalion Commander
B7 - Orlov's Plt CO
B8 - Poldavian 3rd Mountaineers
B10 - Poldavian 15th Sappers Commander
Airsoft Klub Salamander - Slovenia

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Post by Tiger_1 » 06 Jul 2009, 15:10

Well you know us norwegians, we love to talk ;)
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Post by motorhead » 06 Jul 2009, 15:45

Brujo wrote:Didn't really see it as an offensive post so no apology needed, I just sarcastically noted that you and Motorhead hold the highest word-count on these aftermath forums hehe. :)
Berget is a complex airsoft monster - the biggest in the world.
Fobbing it off without proper and detailed feedback would be a mistake.

Analyzing lessons learned and factors to control is crucial to this airsoft concept as a whole. Last year (B6) and this year has proven that a mix of organisator flaws and participator misjudgements must be discussed and handled otherwise next time around.

It seems that units of several hundred airsofters suffer from banale activity level and attitude factors affecting ingame unit performance.
Above a certain size, a simulated airsoft mil unit is not cohesive.

Airsofters are not cohesively composed and the demand for concerted unit behavior and actions are not given factors. To make this game work better next time we need to change our way of organizing airsoft units, their ingame mandates and seriously - some ingame consequences must be in place when people abandon or sabotage their unit's mandates.

Example:
If an ingame NATO-soldier buggers off and pesters ingame civilians against unit orders he/she should be "court-martialled" and expelled from that faction or be given longer off-game time etc.

I've seen people sent home from real UN-service in Lebanon immediately (within 3 days ) after non-appropriate behaviour ( in the unit bar, btw.. ).
Sabotaging and disregarding one's ingame unit mandate is actually a serious ingame offense. The size and mandate of Berget as airsoft event is beginning to require some minimum dicipline levels to function as planned.

Otherwise - if Berget should do the mistake of letting 2000 airsofters attend - this years parody of rogues will multiply. Sad fact, but we're reaching critical mass concerning big airsoft game behaviour patterns.

In the US, some big airsoft games actually have ex-service commanders doing central ingame roles. Just some food for thought. :)
Motörhead, SBA, Norway
B6: NATO, Oscar COY, 3rd PLT, 3rd squad
B7: NATO S6 - smoke signal operator
B8: Pol. 3rd Mount. S6/Liaison - ditto
B9: Pol. 3rd Mount. Com dude - ditto
B10: On leave
B11: Hot Dog

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Post by MrMedic » 06 Jul 2009, 18:07

This is maybe a rather stupid idea, but couldnt we have a "deserter" armbands color? If you go rogue or refuse to follow orders or do something else to merit dishonorable discharge from your team you will get kicked out of your faction and unit but not out of the game. This way it will be possible for units or soldiers to go rogue (which does happen in "real" wars) and then be forced to suffer the consequences.

I can imagine people with deserters armbands will be rather harshly treated by their former team members, whereas certain less prejudiced factions will welcome them with open arms.

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Post by tomy » 06 Jul 2009, 18:31

MrMedic wrote:This is maybe a rather stupid idea, but couldnt we have a "deserter" armbands color? If you go rogue or refuse to follow orders or do something else to merit dishonorable discharge from your team you will get kicked out of your faction and unit but not out of the game. This way it will be possible for units or soldiers to go rogue (which does happen in "real" wars) and then be forced to suffer the consequences.

I can imagine people with deserters armbands will be rather harshly treated by their former team members, whereas certain less prejudiced factions will welcome them with open arms.
hmm interesting Idea. But very many deserters dont really thing they are rouge and desrters...
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B5 Soviet QRF CO
B6 Merc pain in da ass
B7 Orlov's classmate

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Post by Gauntlet » 06 Jul 2009, 18:45

Where would the deserters sleep?
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Post by MrMedic » 06 Jul 2009, 21:04

I figure you are not a deserter until you have been court martialed. So you can go rogue and blow up the bank all you want, as long as you dont get caught. Being forced to wear the "deserter" armband is meant as a ingame punishment after all. ( or you could choose to desert on your own volition I guess.. could be kind of cool to roleplay a fugitive in a warzone.. paranoia is your Friend!)

I guess they'll sleep out in the bush or find a room in town. No one said leaving your faction should make things easier on you.
( This whole leaving base to sleep elsewhere is probably what sinks the whole idea- for safety reasons if nothing else)

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Post by motorhead » 06 Jul 2009, 21:40

tomy wrote:
hmm interesting Idea. But very many deserters dont really thing they are rouge and desrters...
That's also the main problem for such a big airsoft game.
When airsofters get bored they seek action - at all costs.
Disregarding their ingame characters and unit mandate.

That's where true ingame consequences will have the intended effect.
If you deviate from your ingame character - go against your unit mandate and HQ orders - there's no way such game-molesting attitudes should be rewarded with nada ingame concequence.

There should be a price to pay - affecting that players later performance. If not complying - those culprits should be escorted to the Safe Zone and kept off-game for 5 hours to cool off.
Motörhead, SBA, Norway
B6: NATO, Oscar COY, 3rd PLT, 3rd squad
B7: NATO S6 - smoke signal operator
B8: Pol. 3rd Mount. S6/Liaison - ditto
B9: Pol. 3rd Mount. Com dude - ditto
B10: On leave
B11: Hot Dog

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Post by MrMedic » 06 Jul 2009, 22:04

You may be right there, but for some reason I feel that it might be slightly more elegant if ingame "crimes" could be handled ingame. On the same line of thinking people who go terminator and refuse to take hits or do other off-game related idiocies should be handled off-game, but then by off-game staff, not by other players.

As it is now there is hardly a worse ingame punishment than prolonged guard duty.

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Post by motorhead » 06 Jul 2009, 23:21

A true, functioning game MP-force with ingame authority to dicipline non-functional, rule-ignoring players could have an actual role to play for game dynamics. These MP-folks should be closely linked to Game Marshals and in some cases be able to function as Game Marshals and sanction players going astray regarding their mandates and roles.

This year our MP's encountered a Game Marshal of barely 18 years of age, indicating that BE didn't have enough resorces of truly experienced airsofters. That's an early sign of an insufficient game infrastructure incapable of handling such a big and multiple-level airsoft event.
Motörhead, SBA, Norway
B6: NATO, Oscar COY, 3rd PLT, 3rd squad
B7: NATO S6 - smoke signal operator
B8: Pol. 3rd Mount. S6/Liaison - ditto
B9: Pol. 3rd Mount. Com dude - ditto
B10: On leave
B11: Hot Dog

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