Ingame mandates and airsoft player ethics.

Feedback e debriefings from Berget 7.
Os
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Post by Os » 01 Jul 2009, 21:03

wormbyte wrote:In my personal opinion I would say that the event as a whole should be neither MilSim or LARP.

However, as I have said before, I think the factions should be. I can only speak for NATO, but from what I can see, NATO is too wide open for many different types of players.

No game could possibly cater for such diversity and as such players will be dissapointed.

As an organiser, if some can explain to me how to have 500+ players from all different styles all being kept satisfied at an event then please let me know, because I will be all ears.
+1

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Luc
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Post by Luc » 01 Jul 2009, 21:16

Before Beckett even came to BC, casino was robbed twice by NATO, bank was robbed by NATO and working girls + some other unarmed civilians were shot by NATO... Also saw a NATO soldier in BC, with his death rag on, shoting on other NATO soldiers during their attack on BC (at least he apologiezd for that after beeing warned)

Just my 0,05 B$
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Tystnad
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Post by Tystnad » 01 Jul 2009, 21:49

I can only talk for ODA-903 when I say this, but...

We played as civilians this year, but were allowed to, and did, use blue armbands when we wanted to or felt the need to. Every time we performed "evil deeds" it was under civilian armbands, and when we played with blue armbands we always tried to mask ourselves as to not to blow our civilian covers.

But yeah, we saw a shitload of blue harassment, aswell as red and red/grey, when we were in BC under civilian cover. Didnt really notice the SRP do anything "illegal", then again, we werent civilian all the time either.
ODA-903 - Z312 http://www.oda903.se
B5 Sweden - Pt Co Alpha Tango
B6 NATO - Coy Co Bravo Company
B7 Medecins Sans Frontier, Anastesiologist

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motorhead
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Post by motorhead » 01 Jul 2009, 22:08

Os wrote:Hey motorhead read this :
§1.7
Berget games are not MILSIM, but they are airsoft action games with some elements of milsim and LARP.
Been there, read that. So that should make it legitime to leave your roleplay NATO unit and harass and kill ingame civilians? Think not.
Os wrote: I know you "hate" speedball players but i think its so silly that you nag aboute ppl didnt do what nato is supose to do and you whant a punish system like in real life for those who doesnt do what you like.
First. You don't really know me as a person. Don't piss me off by labeling me "speedball hater". I've said on numerous forums that speedball and milsim are likeworthy aspects of an excellent hobby - airsoft. I happen to like speedball personally - but my point is simply that you don't play speedball-style "fragfest" when you're a part of an airsoft batallion with the mandate to protect civilians and are given Rules Of Engagement (ROE) towards other fractions. Gettit?
Os wrote:If this is going to work you hafto live whit both rp mislim and action players. Hey its almoust realistic that some players whent rouge and did "bad things" . Isnt that what we read aboute in the news all the time? :)
That's a pile of superficial historical ignorance. When in the history of this planet did you read about a NATO unit being compromised by their own soldiers like a bunch of people did in this game setting? You and some others fail to see beyond your own bubble of self-satisfaction and BB-showering prefs.

In my opinion there's more than enough room for LARP, milsim and action-based missions for the BB-enthusiast within Berget as a game setting.

But that also requires a structured approach to the ingame NATO task objectives - and that's where the milsim element comes in. You slap together 500+ people in a so called airsoft batallion, divide into 5 companies with platoons and squads to make exactly that be a functional structure. But playacting ingame NATO as aggressors and bullys killing ingame civilians is downright stupid and deserves to be avoided.
- Google up and see if that's ever happened in real NATO service.

We have to learn from this event, select people into more specialized units or game fractions and have those game elements behave more diciplined if this game shall work as the organisers planned.
Motörhead, SBA, Norway
B6: NATO, Oscar COY, 3rd PLT, 3rd squad
B7: NATO S6 - smoke signal operator
B8: Pol. 3rd Mount. S6/Liaison - ditto
B9: Pol. 3rd Mount. Com dude - ditto
B10: On leave
B11: Hot Dog

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wormbyte
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Post by wormbyte » 01 Jul 2009, 22:12

motörhead wrote:We have to learn from this event, select people into more specialized units or game fractions and have those game elements behave more diciplined if this game shall work as the organisers planned.
Totally agree!
B6 - Platoon Commander (India 1st Platoon) - NATO
B7 - Company Commander (India Coy) - NATO
B10 - 3rd Rangers Commander
B12 - GCT Ranger Commander
B13 - GCT Para Inf - Company Commander
B14 - Commanding Officer of the Nordic Alliance Force

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Beckett
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Post by Beckett » 01 Jul 2009, 22:17

Kaiser wrote: The problem is that some of you are calling upon yourselves the "true meaning of airsoft", like you are "THE JESUS CHRIST OF AIRSOFT".

Have you forgotten what airsoft is all about?

Companionship, despite the type of roleplaying you have chosen?
Having fun, despite of the milsim reenactment you are taking?

Kaiser
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Berget 5 - RU; medic
Berget 7 - NATO; India Coy, 4th platoon
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Beckett
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Post by Beckett » 01 Jul 2009, 22:21

motörhead wrote:But playacting ingame NATO as aggressors and bullys killing ingame civilians is downright stupid and deserves to be avoided.
- Google up and see if that's ever happened in real NATO service.
If you think Google is not censored - as any other mass media. Wake up!
If you want details, please PM me. I don't want to smudge the great forum.
"I'll be in touch... silent kill that is." Fun lovin' criminal
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Berget 7 - NATO; India Coy, 4th platoon
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Beckett
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Post by Beckett » 01 Jul 2009, 22:26

Luc wrote:Before Beckett even came to BC, casino was robbed twice by NATO, bank was robbed by NATO and working girls + some other unarmed civilians were shot by NATO... Also saw a NATO soldier in BC, with his death rag on, shoting on other NATO soldiers during their attack on BC (at least he apologiezd for that after beeing warned)

Just my 0,05 B$
All we did was the minimal damage possible: we did 3 knockouts:
- guy protecting church
- priest
- bank manager

We never did or intended to harass civilians, especialy not the ladys.
I was enraged (maybe too harsh word) to hear what some NATO forces did prior to our unit arrival to BC. And did not approwed the violence I saw that US ambassy personal acted upon civilians in BC (inocent or guilty).
"I'll be in touch... silent kill that is." Fun lovin' criminal
-----------------------
Berget 5 - RU; medic
Berget 7 - NATO; India Coy, 4th platoon
HAS team, Slovenia
www.has-team.com

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Brujo
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Post by Brujo » 01 Jul 2009, 22:26

wormbyte wrote:
motörhead wrote:We have to learn from this event, select people into more specialized units or game fractions and have those game elements behave more diciplined if this game shall work as the organisers planned.
Totally agree!
And who is to select the 1000+ individuals?
Even if you set RoE of a faction in stone, there will be those applying to NATO because they just bought the Eagle Ciras recently... and won't read neither RoE nor rules.
After the game, they will bitch and moan on forums and write loong reports on how they just jerked off during base defense for four days and such. And blame everyone else for that.

The only feasible solution would be a cohesive team of commanders and GM's working side-by-side identifying needs of individuals and serving them perfect pleasure. Rest when tired, hot shower when dirty, food when hungry... won't happen :) ever :)

Eliminate NATO. BE have eliminated all nationalities from factions (soviet, finns, swedish...)... and replaced them with private organisations. Why not make the same with NATO. Put in blackwater or something instead.

Sorry for not serving any decent answers here, just debating and opening new questions... if I knew the answers I would have implemented those last year hehe.
B5 - Soviet VDV Battalion Commander
B6 - NATO Battalion Commander
B7 - Orlov's Plt CO
B8 - Poldavian 3rd Mountaineers
B10 - Poldavian 15th Sappers Commander
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Os
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Post by Os » 01 Jul 2009, 22:30

motörhead wrote:
Os wrote:Hey motorhead read this :
§1.7
Berget games are not MILSIM, but they are airsoft action games with some elements of milsim and LARP.
Been there, read that. So that should make it legitime to leave your roleplay NATO unit and harass and kill ingame civilians? Think not.
Os wrote: I know you "hate" speedball players but i think its so silly that you nag aboute ppl didnt do what nato is supose to do and you whant a punish system like in real life for those who doesnt do what you like.
First. You don't really know me as a person. Don't piss me off by labeling me "speedball hater". I've said on numerous forums that speedball and milsim are likeworthy aspects of an excellent hobby - airsoft. I happen to like speedball personally - but my point is simply that you don't play speedball-style "fragfest" when you're a part of an airsoft batallion with the mandate to protect civilians and are given Rules Of Engagement (ROE) towards other fractions. Gettit?
Os wrote:If this is going to work you hafto live whit both rp mislim and action players. Hey its almoust realistic that some players whent rouge and did "bad things" . Isnt that what we read aboute in the news all the time? :)
That's a pile of superficial historical ignorance. When in the history of this planet did you read about a NATO unit being compromised by their own soldiers like a bunch of people did in this game setting? You and some others fail to see beyond your own bubble of self-satisfaction and BB-showering prefs.

In my opinion there's more than enough room for LARP, milsim and action-based missions for the BB-enthusiast within Berget as a game setting.

But that also requires a structured approach to the ingame NATO task objectives - and that's where the milsim element comes in. You slap together 500+ people in a so called airsoft batallion, divide into 5 companies with platoons and squads to make exactly that be a functional structure. But playacting ingame NATO as aggressors and bullys killing ingame civilians is downright stupid and deserves to be avoided.
- Google up and see if that's ever happened in real NATO service.

We have to learn from this event, select people into more specialized units or game fractions and have those game elements behave more diciplined if this game shall work as the organisers planned.
Sorry to piss you off wasnt the point. hate was whit " " I hope you understand.
:(
I just dont think you understand that ppl acutaly go bored and just whent a place that they beleved there would be action.

The players didnt go there to do bad things. Noone whent there just so they could kill civilians.

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motorhead
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Post by motorhead » 01 Jul 2009, 22:35

Beckett wrote:
Luc wrote:Before Beckett even came to BC, casino was robbed twice by NATO, bank was robbed by NATO and working girls + some other unarmed civilians were shot by NATO... Also saw a NATO soldier in BC, with his death rag on, shoting on other NATO soldiers during their attack on BC (at least he apologiezd for that after beeing warned)

Just my 0,05 B$
All we did was the minimal damage possible: we did 3 knockouts:
- guy protecting church
- priest
- bank manager

We never did or intended to harass civilians, especialy not the ladys.
I was enraged (maybe too harsh word) to hear what some NATO forces did prior to our unit arrival to BC. And did not approwed the violence I saw that US ambassy personal acted upon civilians in BC (inocent or guilty).
You still don't get it, do you? Teaspoon mode:That was not your task or NATO objective at that point in the game. You actually fuelled an ingame conflict and took the initiative and control from your chain-of-command. You and some others from ingame NATO ranks failed miserably to play your ingame characters the way they should.

If your head as a NATO player had been switched on within the game character you were supposed to play you would simply observe and report what the other NATO players had done wrong to us at HQ. Instead you destabilized the situation further and took the initiative and control away from your own HQ and sabotaged the ingame NATO mandate.

At HQ we got angry calls on the radio and had to respond to BE-crew about what happened. The game was at that point (friday at 23:40) spiralling out of control for both us and Berget Events.

That's not the way this game should be played. It's not about winning or loosing - it's about balancing the ingame fractions so the game works within the planned parameters.
Motörhead, SBA, Norway
B6: NATO, Oscar COY, 3rd PLT, 3rd squad
B7: NATO S6 - smoke signal operator
B8: Pol. 3rd Mount. S6/Liaison - ditto
B9: Pol. 3rd Mount. Com dude - ditto
B10: On leave
B11: Hot Dog

Os
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Post by Os » 01 Jul 2009, 22:56

I say it once again.

The game wasnt good planed at the start.
Thats wy rouge Nato players whent on "private" missions.
At berget 6 we didnt have a bashir city and no one whent "rouge".
I just think that if a enemy base was closer and easer to engage noone whould have cared about the civilians.
And then the LARP whould have the "peace" to do theyr stuff.

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Tystnad
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Post by Tystnad » 01 Jul 2009, 23:00

No, people didnt go rogue, they went home. Why do you still bother with defending a decision that almost everyone saw as one that ruined the storyline and the game?


EDIT:
Clarification; I meant that people went home in B6. Sure, there were other issues involved aswell, but there was a lot more action going on for NATO this year, so that excuse doesnt really work. :wink:
Last edited by Tystnad on 01 Jul 2009, 23:05, edited 1 time in total.
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B5 Sweden - Pt Co Alpha Tango
B6 NATO - Coy Co Bravo Company
B7 Medecins Sans Frontier, Anastesiologist

Os
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Post by Os » 01 Jul 2009, 23:03

Haha im just talking aboute wy and how it happend and how we can awoid it next year. Not trying to defend it just explain it.

I honestly mean that everyone that F... up the game for someoneelse on purpose shouldt play here.

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Post by Tiger_1 » 01 Jul 2009, 23:10

I agree with Os's last point. If it had been a enemy base there, it would not have been such a big problem. But the only thing that proves, is that not only do people like that not read/care about the game, they are lazy as well....

I know the comment above was provoking. And I am really done with the whole discusion. Both "sides" have made som good points, and I am sure Berget events have enought to make some changes next year.

As for the comment that Os quoted from the rules that "berget is not a milsim event" I am sure that is put there for one reason, and one reason only. If they say it is, they will not get 1300 people paying for it!
NATO at least IS a milsim faction. And as others have pointed out, perhaps it would be wise to ad a "milsim level" to each faction next time. Even if the guys who "need to try my new guchi gear" will still be there, at least they have been warned.

Also, any form of punishment will not work. All you need is people that can look at them self in the mirror and say "this is what I am!".
"go to your God like a soldier!"

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