ingame Vehicles

Feedback e debriefings from Berget 7.
Alchemic
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ingame Vehicles

Post by Alchemic » 01 Jul 2009, 10:40

During the whole B7 my team has attacked several NATO vehicles on the road. It was very annoying when drivers after being hit did not stop but just started to drive faster. After managing to block one of those cars and as the driver does he know the rules the answer was "No, this is first time I drive the vehicle on B7". After reporting several of those accidends to GMs, only one car was taken out from the game for 2h (not for the rest of the game play as it was promiced by GMs).

another thing: in the rules it was stated the cars are allowed to drive only 30km/h, however this was not the case. We have encountered many cases when NATO cars were speeding like crazzy (mainly around their base).

It is very annoying when you plan an assult and wait for several hours in an ambush, "destroyed" vehicle does not stop.

To avoid such incidents our suggestions are:
1. There must be only ONE designated driver assignet to drive only ONE specific vehicle (must be checked by GMs everytime GM meets the vehicle, who is driving a car)

2. Before getting approval from GM to drive ingame vehicle, driver must pass the test for knowing the rules of the game and how to behave in different situations (much like real driver license)

3. ingame "driving license" can be a good way to control the actions of the driver and vehicle.

4. in case of violation of the rules the vehicle must be taken out of the game for the 24h, if the violation is repeated the vehicle must be removed from the game completely.


In this way we will get a better game play, more responsible actions from the players and people will start treating more carefully the assets they have thus improving the realism of the game.
Last edited by Alchemic on 01 Jul 2009, 10:52, edited 1 time in total.

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FallenGuard
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Post by FallenGuard » 01 Jul 2009, 10:47

I think the case with Vehicles is often that the Driver simply not registers he is hit. (Probably because of concentrating on the Road, engine noise too loud etc.). We had the same incident with an Orlov Car, was hit by a Grenade Launcher but just drove on.

You are right tough that the Drivers have extra Responsibility and should know wha they are doing.

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Yuri Orlov
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Post by Yuri Orlov » 01 Jul 2009, 11:06

that's why the rules we use at home (and were used at B5) state that to stop a vehicle you need to hit it with a grenade launcher to the front hood/windshield area so that the driver has a chance to register the hit. The current vehicle rules (applied at B6/B7) are ridiculous IMO.

Alchemic
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Post by Alchemic » 01 Jul 2009, 11:12

In all of our assaults the driver clearly has registered the hits since all of them were covering the face with the hand and screaming "CONTACT".

Some of the drivers even acceped the hits, and were cured by medics later. But NONE of the vehicles stopped!


I thing by requesing grenade launcher hit of the car we will be limiting possibilities to eliminate the cars from the game, and the side that user car for attack purposes will have a huge advange over the other party.

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Post by jdoe » 01 Jul 2009, 11:27

Did the rules state that a vehicle can be stopped by shooting in the back window? I don't recall that.

But this is what happened to our van, which was OFFGAME. Damn good the back window did not brake. What if it was not us, but some local, real civilians?

The person who did this, knows who I'm talking about. And you should also know, this is not done and forgotten. You broke game rules, Swedish law and general etiquette. I'm also disappointed about how the GMs handled the situation on spot. Which was nothing. Luckily, we had a more responsible and up-for-it GM at our base, who took our case and really started to handle it.

I think the ingame-vehicle rules are good, but the implementation and players' knowledge of them is miniscule. This leads to unfortunate situations, combined with frustration and pure idiocy, you have small disasters. This is something BE can do little about, but there are ways...
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Tiger_1
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Post by Tiger_1 » 01 Jul 2009, 11:47

Just a quick comment here. A moving car (even a soft one) is not really a very easy target to hit (even if good guys in US films allways gets the driver), so the fact that somebody thinks they managed to put a few bb's in the general area of the drivers field of view is not really enought to take it out, at least in my book. A consentrated burst of fire directly infront of (or side window) from the driver on the other hand, is.
Ingame speed limmits must be followed!
I also heard that from next year Berget events are planning to require all ingame cars to have BAWS sensors fitted, so they can be taken out by AT4, and other systems that Berget are working on. THIS will be a BIG help, and solve a lot off the problems.
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y0d4
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Post by y0d4 » 01 Jul 2009, 11:53

I don't really see why there should be special tests for drivers? People failed to follow all sorts of rules, shouldn't everyone be tested on the rules then?

Alchemic
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Post by Alchemic » 01 Jul 2009, 11:58

y0d4 wrote:I don't really see why there should be special tests for drivers? People failed to follow all sorts of rules, shouldn't everyone be tested on the rules then?
the accidents that can happen with vehicles being involved, can have more serious results. Like not following the speed limits, in case of an attack on driver, he can react upredictably (stress, sudden turn, and so on which is normal) this can cause serious casualties. (we can continue with examples of situations). Basicly what I'm trying to say is that vehicle is more dangerous then airsoft gun and thus must be handled with more care and caution.

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55nilsson
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...

Post by 55nilsson » 01 Jul 2009, 12:49

I am the platoon commander of the NATO mech.platoon (Bravo1).

I don´t know what situation you are talking about in your first post, but every time we where out we where fired upon, and everytime we stopped.
However, the burst to the windows only took out the drivers, not the vehicle itself. So we stopped for 2 minutes and the driver was mediced and we drove on. ACCORDING TO THE RULES!
The only way to destroy a vehicle thus making it have to respawn for 2 hours was to have a engineer put his hands on the vehicle for 2 minutes.

In the cases of us being wiped out (there were a few) we waited for the attackers to finish their attack before we Orangemarked our cars and returend to our base or mainsafe to respawn. We had a total of 3, 2 hour respawn for the entire platoon! In total 16 hours of respawn.

I can only answer for the times I myself where out with the entire platoon, not the few times some of our vehicles were on solomissions.

Alchemic
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Re: ...

Post by Alchemic » 01 Jul 2009, 13:12

Two vehicles with license plates WGU 810 and MAY 003. (on solo missions not in the convoys) Both vehicles were attacked two times on different roads (road to NATO base, and road to Bashir-city). Have not had a chance to note the other license plates.


Quote from the rules:
Vehicles
In the event of a hit the driver will stop the engine and shout HIT.

I agreed that only engineer can "destroy" the vehilce but it is rather hard to do so if the driver is not stopping. And stopping the car for two minutes at 800m from the actual place of engagement for medic to treat the driver, does not give the assault team any chance.


However in the convoys car drivers acted responsibly (friday night attack on the mercs base). And I would like to thank NATO drivers of the first two cars, they acted according to the rules, brining much fun to us and their team mates that got stuck in the cars. Everything was very realistic and enjoyble for both sides.

55nilsson wrote:I am the platoon commander of the NATO mech.platoon (Bravo1).
I don´t know what situation you are talking about in your first post, but every time we where out we where fired upon, and everytime we stopped.
However, the burst to the windows only took out the drivers, not the vehicle itself. So we stopped for 2 minutes and the driver was mediced and we drove on. ACCORDING TO THE RULES!
The only way to destroy a vehicle thus making it have to respawn for 2 hours was to have a engineer put his hands on the vehicle for 2 minutes.

In the cases of us being wiped out (there were a few) we waited for the attackers to finish their attack before we Orangemarked our cars and returend to our base or mainsafe to respawn. We had a total of 3, 2 hour respawn for the entire platoon! In total 16 hours of respawn.

I can only answer for the times I myself where out with the entire platoon, not the few times some of our vehicles were on solomissions.

This topic is more to discuss the possible improvements of ingame vehicle usage, rather then to blame someone. Sorry if it looked like that.

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Post by Panzergraf » 01 Jul 2009, 17:48

jdoe wrote:Did the rules state that a vehicle can be stopped by shooting in the back window? I don't recall that.

But this is what happened to our van, which was OFFGAME. Damn good the back window did not brake. What if it was not us, but some local, real civilians?
I was with the platoon who fired at your back window.

First:
We had just been dropped off by car ourselves, one of the BE TGB's.
On the way there, we drove pas a bunch of Dead Milo's (or ORC's?), who btw. did not wear off-game rags and caused quite a bit of confusion.
We also observed those guys being loaded into vehicles, BE-owned trucks as well as your van.
None of these trucks wore off-game rags that we could see, so the driver of our vehicle advised us it would be a good idea to stop these vehicles and destroy them, denying your side the transport points.

Your van was recognized as an in-game vehicle, as it had picked up players. We were 110% certain it was not local civilians, otherwise we would never have fired.

However, the small orange flag in your front window was not easily seen, and we were not sure if it was a deadrag or a red ORC/Milo flag.
As it was on an in-game road, and we knew it was not a local civilian vehicle, we deemed it safe to shoot.

I know the guys who fired, and they were using stock weapons at around 100m/s, that together with the range should not have caused any damage to the vehicle, which I am happy to hear it didn't.


Next time, if you bring a vehicle to a game and drive it on in-game roads, be prepared that it might be hit. At the very least use better markings to mark it off-game.

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y0d4
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Post by y0d4 » 01 Jul 2009, 18:08

Alchemic wrote:
y0d4 wrote:I don't really see why there should be special tests for drivers? People failed to follow all sorts of rules, shouldn't everyone be tested on the rules then?
the accidents that can happen with vehicles being involved, can have more serious results. Like not following the speed limits, in case of an attack on driver, he can react upredictably (stress, sudden turn, and so on which is normal) this can cause serious casualties. (we can continue with examples of situations). Basicly what I'm trying to say is that vehicle is more dangerous then airsoft gun and thus must be handled with more care and caution.
I don't see how answering 5 questions about in game driving is going to solve the problem you're descibing... just like players who don't obey safety distances after chroning. At least its easier for a game master to identify a car than a person who brakes the rules so it should be easier to ban people.

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Post by Alchemic » 01 Jul 2009, 18:15

maybe it will not solve the problem. or maybe it will solve only the part of it, but since encountering answers like "I did not know that I have to stop", I belive it atleast will make sure that person have really read the rules.
y0d4 wrote: I don't see how answering 5 questions about in game driving is going to solve the problem you're descibing... just like players who don't obey safety distances after chroning. At least its easier for a game master to identify a car than a person who brakes the rules so it should be easier to ban people.

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Post by Plante » 01 Jul 2009, 18:29

Panzergraf wrote:
jdoe wrote:Did the rules state that a vehicle can be stopped by shooting in the back window? I don't recall that.

But this is what happened to our van, which was OFFGAME. Damn good the back window did not brake. What if it was not us, but some local, real civilians?
I was with the platoon who fired at your back window.

First:
We had just been dropped off by car ourselves, one of the BE TGB's.
On the way there, we drove pas a bunch of Dead Milo's (or ORC's?), who btw. did not wear off-game rags and caused quite a bit of confusion.
We also observed those guys being loaded into vehicles, BE-owned trucks as well as your van.
None of these trucks wore off-game rags that we could see, so the driver of our vehicle advised us it would be a good idea to stop these vehicles and destroy them, denying your side the transport points.

Your van was recognized as an in-game vehicle, as it had picked up players. We were 110% certain it was not local civilians, otherwise we would never have fired.

However, the small orange flag in your front window was not easily seen, and we were not sure if it was a deadrag or a red ORC/Milo flag.
As it was on an in-game road, and we knew it was not a local civilian vehicle, we deemed it safe to shoot.

I know the guys who fired, and they were using stock weapons at around 100m/s, that together with the range should not have caused any damage to the vehicle, which I am happy to hear it didn't.


Next time, if you bring a vehicle to a game and drive it on in-game roads, be prepared that it might be hit. At the very least use better markings to mark it off-game.
Imo not your fault .. Basicly people should keep their offgame cars off the game area .. Simple as that .. I dont see what offgame cars have to do in the game area beside the civillians...
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Post by Thinker » 01 Jul 2009, 19:25

Alchemic, I find you reasons for posting and your own behavior during the incidents quite odd. I only speak for the incident involving the TGB11, not MAY003.

For what you wrote I assume I'm one of the drivers that was shot and I talk to you ingame, as I told you when we meet ingame there was a miss understandment the first time you shoot me, from both mine and your sides accually.

First, you attacked the vehicle on the crest just before a steep down slope with a tight turn just before the road from Nato base leading out to the main road. When the vehicle was fired at, I waved and indicated a hit since as far as I remembered the vehicle rules I was hit and the vechicle was out if the vehicle was fired at (even though you acually didnt hit me or the window infront of the driver as I later read the rules required but that is beside the point), I indicated a hit anyway since I thought I was hit. I stopped the vechicle as soon as I deemed it safe, after the steep slope and tight turn, about 100m later besides the road and stayed there. I turned the engine off. Its open terrain, you really should have seen me from way up in the turn. Then the other people in the truck that I was transporting informed me that I understood the vehicle rules wrong, the told me the rules and that I could be medic'd. Which they did to me and the other two that was hit. After about 3 minutes I started the vehicle and drove of again.

The second time the vechicle was attacked, about 45min later (according to timestamp on photos) was just as it drove in to the forrest after the farmhouses on the road leading up to bashir, it was hit from the left and you hit the person sitting beside the driver, and one more but I didnt hear any rattling on the window before me and you didnt hit me, so I continued up the road til the crossing about 150m up the road where I could turn and the other persons jumped of. There was a bit of chaos there since other cars where comming down.

You and your 3 man group ran up to the crossing and was quite verbal in accusing me of cheating, and other things, which I understand, but we talked and all shaked hands and agreed that it was a missunderstandment and its was ok, apparently that was not the case. I told you that I was taking the vehicle of game for a long time. Which was fine by you. Directly after I drove down to main safe zone and talked with crew that there had been a incident with missed vehicles rules and pointed out the vehicle and informed it was going offgame. We where still there when your group arrived and started complaining to crew, I greeted and pointed out the vehicle was parked in the safezone. We talked and you gave everyone you side of it and I took down the number to the other vehicle MAY003 since I didnt recognise you discription of it, you said car, so I mentally missed that there was a truck which matched the description. The TGB11 was offgame for atleast 7h (photos again cant say how much longer after that) although most of it up in base.

I informed the owner of the TGB11 when returning to base, and we also located the other vehicle MAY003, and Kris talked to them but I cant say anything about what was said.

I cant speak for anyone else, but I did my best to follow vehicle speed limits, but its quite easy for the speed to increase to 40km/h going down from Nato berget. When you shot the second time I was way under 30km/h since I just passed the houses and was going about 15-20km/h there.

I cant say anything about what the game masters said to you or if there was any more incidents besides the ones we talked about both on the road to bashir and in the safezone, and only really give my part of it, but you really should give all available information when posting like this, not colour all of it to your advantage and removing info. Understand it but its bad style, although I most likely have made some errors in this text to.

I would like crew to confirm offgame times, and that they where informed, Kris to inform about his talk with MAY003, and if DSD in the black car going down from Bashir that witnessed it to also write what they saw, and if needed I will talk to exomorph that was in the TGB11 to make a user and give his version. Will also try and find the players riding in the TGB11s back if you want.
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