improvement suggestions for B10

Feedback and debriefings from Berget 9
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motorhead
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Post by motorhead » 15 Jul 2011, 21:46

The "how" must come from the more mature and experienced airsoft players through game-, info-flow, situational awareness (SA) and unit size understanding.

I'm therefore appealing to that kind of experienced airsoft players ( preferrably with some military or organisational background ) to step up and help Berget improve its qualities. I want those with big multi-day airsoft game insight and maturity to step forward in seeing the bigger picture.

As Spof correctly has observed, in the real world military such big unit sizes and ops demand months and weeks of planning and training. We - as players - can do a better job planning next year already as well. I'm already upgrading my radio kit and prepare for next year's Berget contingencies based on this years COM troubles. I have several solutions in mind already - including a portable COM solution and different roles and mission concepts.

No need to give up. The imagination is our only limitation in this context.
The term "action-event vacation" is more than a myth. We can (up to a point) actually shape it ourselves and make it happen.
Motörhead, SBA, Norway
B6: NATO, Oscar COY, 3rd PLT, 3rd squad
B7: NATO S6 - smoke signal operator
B8: Pol. 3rd Mount. S6/Liaison - ditto
B9: Pol. 3rd Mount. Com dude - ditto
B10: On leave
B11: Hot Dog

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Brujo
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Post by Brujo » 16 Jul 2011, 07:25

Alberto wrote: Therefore Berget Crew has to either find a motivation factor to attract experienced volunteers (I stress experienced as we don't want any player to be in HQ), or hire people for this role.
I'll offer you a second point-of-view here, Alberto.
I've been in airsoft since 1999. I have played 450 or so weekend skirmishes, about 40 per year. Countless international events. I have seen it all. I have had all the rifles i wanted, I have had every kit I wanted.
Being part of a HQ that coordinated a battalion sized unit is something one never gets tired of. There is always the will for improvement. Things one would like to improve over last year.

I do not think Berget Events need to invent a magic potion for HQ attraction. It is something a mature player either has or doesn't have.

Myself and I think also Motorhead, believe, that by presenting this duty into detail, may cause a few of those old geezers to actually want them try to start using also the other part of the brain for airsoft.

What a great upgrade of my airsoft career HQ was!
B5 - Soviet VDV Battalion Commander
B6 - NATO Battalion Commander
B7 - Orlov's Plt CO
B8 - Poldavian 3rd Mountaineers
B10 - Poldavian 15th Sappers Commander
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Post by Blackwolf » 16 Jul 2011, 19:13

Hello

Brujo
What a great upgrade of my airsoft career HQ was!
You had one of the best and most efficient HQs in B6 if i remenber well, with a full staff.

That was excellent.

Regards

Blackwolf
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BERGET 6 NATO PLATOON LEADER
BERGET 7 NATO COMPANY COMMANDER
BERGET 8 NAF BATTALION COMMANDER
BERGET 9 NAF BATTALION COMMANDER
BERGET 10 NAF ALL THE WAY
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motorhead
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Post by motorhead » 16 Jul 2011, 23:24

The best functioning and best staffed HQ in my airsoft time was at B7 with Kris as CO. We actually were able to create a good HQ atmosphere with 5 radio operators on a shift rotation, with Thinker as Chief of Staff.

Trouble then was also that Berget crew forgot to refuel the repeater generator, so Smoke (Poland) and her crew had to be used as relay station when our meagre HQ Puxing-888 was out of range for our troops.

However we had an astounding success with only 2 radio operators operating the Poldavian HQ at B8. Freno, Ovidius and TheMayor (Johan) did an excellent job of following up the information flow generated by the radio- and cell phone traffic. We were also saved by easier and less contoured terrain, resulting in better radio COM when the repeater crapped out on us again.

Goes to show that few radio operators with a good in-base commanding staff can also do a good job. This is not the military, were people can be ordered to do staff work, but I hope by revealing do's and dont's we can motivate more airsofters to see this important batallion-size big-game aspect.

And ALAS - we already have several volunteers showing their faces here. This is good for the game!
Motörhead, SBA, Norway
B6: NATO, Oscar COY, 3rd PLT, 3rd squad
B7: NATO S6 - smoke signal operator
B8: Pol. 3rd Mount. S6/Liaison - ditto
B9: Pol. 3rd Mount. Com dude - ditto
B10: On leave
B11: Hot Dog

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Post by Saveli_M » 18 Jul 2011, 01:21

Maybe those radio repeaters should be tactical points next year? ;)
That should make TP's as a VERY important role and not just capture at some day, but really hold on for! And if you hold SP, BE also provides some fuel to generators!

Just a really wicked idea middle of a night.... :roll:
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B8 - Poldavian 1st Inf. Medic / APC Crew
B9 - The FIRM / Zansian B04 / Van Crew
B10 - Zanzian "Black Guard" Infantry Btt.
B11 - GCT Taskforce / Echo-Niner
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Post by Tiger_1 » 18 Jul 2011, 06:58

Well, that would have to be berget repeaters, and I must admit that for game safty issues, I like giving people a chance to sleep during base safe. Having objektiv ingame that MUST be held during the entire night will lead to units having to rotate to "night shift" and let's face it, guarding something a whole night just in case someone comes, has never been a strong side for most airsofters ;)
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Post by spin_t » 18 Jul 2011, 23:04

Just a personal opinion...more personnel for HQ communications is clearly a must,but the Bat. Commanders has to stay in the field !
Airsofters r not real soldiers,many of them r executing a given order in theyr own way and TIMING.
I'm affraid that as Bat.Commander coordinating your unit from HQ via radio will bring huge differences betwen the real situation on the field and what you receive from your Coy commanders and with what delay...
Also the Coy commanders will have a much more important role and will have to performe close to real life levels .
To mention also the troops morale : most of the Commanders on all factions r doing this for several years,r well known and respected (again,most of them :)) .

Anyway,regardless of the next year setup for HQ, IMO the factions and the Battalions has to be much,much more defined for the players to understand what for r signing in exactly.X Bat....70% offensive looks like is not enough.
Z Batt. Mountaineers : you will have to walk few klicks per day,no woodland taxi available,for sure blisters will be inclusive in the ticket price,there is no acid rain in Sweden,is no reason to go home for that,this unit is a Milsim type and come with all the good and bad parts included.
Tha same for factions and units where people could barbeque,chit chat and ...whatever.
This way as commander you will know how to arange your missions and hopefuly the players "migration" will stop.
B 8 Poldavian 1-st Bat.
B 9 Poldavian 320th Art Comm
B10 Poldavian 15-th
B11 troop carrier betwen BRaven base and front line :)
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motorhead
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Post by motorhead » 19 Jul 2011, 05:11

My standpoint is crystal clear: I'm not doing any more HQ roles until I see a better Brigade infrastructure than this year. My upgraded COM-package with a combined Brigade HQ & FOB-assistance solution will be offered to a dedicated mobile field unit serving my faction next year.

What role I will offer depends on IF this mandatory HQ-upgrade discussion shows any progress. If most COM is going directly from Berget to the trustees cell phones or via BE-scripted Mission leaflets there's obviously no organisational need for any pure radio-operator.

What you/we - Berget & us players - need is a functioning above-batallion-level HQ-concept serving the Berget-Events Batallion-based unit requirements. That means a Brigade/Regimental HQ with tactical decision-makers, coordinating power and mandates. And to say the very least - a better COM infrastructure with functioning repeaters from Day 1 to Day 4. There's only so much I or my faction can achieve by personal upgrades and efforts.

I leave that to BE and the possible/upcoming B10 trustees to debate until further. I'm already kitting up for alternative roles next year. I simply need a change and another angle-of-attack this time. There are too many variables not solved around the future game-HQ-for me to gamble on for now.

I'm motivated by pure game-enhancing functionality and can be PM'ed by relevant field players when needed. My present path for B10 is oriented more towards a mobile field unit and different roles now. Time will show.
Motörhead, SBA, Norway
B6: NATO, Oscar COY, 3rd PLT, 3rd squad
B7: NATO S6 - smoke signal operator
B8: Pol. 3rd Mount. S6/Liaison - ditto
B9: Pol. 3rd Mount. Com dude - ditto
B10: On leave
B11: Hot Dog

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Post by Waldo » 19 Jul 2011, 10:01

It would be nice, if BE could make a post of what they think that is something to be changed at B10. They could give their suggestions and we could give them ideas how this could be changed or adapted, so that it would be better suitable for us as the players.

Also I like spin_t's idea of how the "Teams" section could be changed. there truely was a lot of confusion of what milsim or XX% offensive meant at the "Berget-scale".
When every player knows how his desired unit acts in the field and can be prepared....Hopefully there will be no "Sits around most of the day due to the lack of BE provided missions, or gets busted by NAF because gets not up to date BE provided missions" for the 320th :D

My oppinion is that we need a real brigade HQ, not just a tent with a bit of radio equiptment and motorhead (thanks again to you. you did an awesome job!)
An overall responsible HQ-team could coordinate the different Units and eventually try to combine them when there is a major attack. When there are no BE provided mission for a unit, the HQ could see if they can be used on the field to support other units, take a SP/TP or relief a guarding unit. It would also be better for the moral of the players because there would be more of a feeling that all the BATs are working together and not like this year when most of the time every unit (or sometimes every squad) fought for themselves.

My 2 cents.
B9: Pol. 320th Arty - Coy Cmd
B10: 45th Mountaineer Sappers ("Sapperneers") - Wiley 2-2
B11-B13: Serving the country
B14: UPIR - Righteous Employee

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Post by Ober-Lix » 19 Jul 2011, 11:32

I would like you guys to consider a couple of things. We all know radio cumunication is not perfect. This is dependant on

- use of free legal frequencies
- terrain, buidings, weather, distance etc.
- legal use of transmitting power
- PMR frequencies are only short distance and only useable inside coy level
- 2m band is a radio HAM and requires a licence. Besides that the radio HAM
members might go nuts if their frequencies getting clogged up by Berget.

My two radio operators at B8 were Alice and her friend Mikaela and they did an exellent job. They even managed with difficulties.

Talking about HQs !

As a Bat. Commander you must be able to move your HQ temporary for tactical reasons or to keep in contact with your company COs. No one says you have to stay in the alocated HQ all the time, be flexable.
I had to do this big time at B8 due to a lousy location at the end.

Remember, if we are talking about the real world, soldiers sometimes have to do with a lot less possibilities of keeping in contact with their HQs or interpretation of their orders.
Do you think in airsoft it should be any different ?
B6 2nd Bat. CO NATO
B7 Batallion CO Milo´s Tigers
B8 Batallion CO NAF 5th Infantry
B9. Batallion CO NAF 1st Mech
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B11 lets see
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Post by Waldo » 19 Jul 2011, 17:51

Ober-Lix wrote: Remember, if we are talking about the real world, soldiers sometimes have to do with a lot less possibilities of keeping in contact with their HQs or interpretation of their orders.
Do you think in airsoft it should be any different ?
Well, in the real armies, the soldiers train together for months or even years. they are briefed what their overall mission is and they have at least some orders, so the individual elements can fulfill their mission without radio contacts and HQ orders. We could do this also at Berget, but then we have to prepare in a whole different way and change the game layout.
B9: Pol. 320th Arty - Coy Cmd
B10: 45th Mountaineer Sappers ("Sapperneers") - Wiley 2-2
B11-B13: Serving the country
B14: UPIR - Righteous Employee

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Post by motorhead » 19 Jul 2011, 22:44

Well said, Ober-lix. Us COM-dudes already know the legal stuff, but in all honesty this is not the real deal military, and airsofters are not trained or prepared to deal with this year's COM-flaws.

The practical consequences are more noticable in a 4-day airsoftgame. Military excercises and deployment have weeks and months to rectify technical problems and a vastly more prepared infrastructure and better resources than this big airsoft game.

No problem being flexible and field operative, but that should also be a part of the planned contingencies. With the present unreliable COM-situation at Berget we're better served by being mobile and less stuck in a rear HQ. Or just use the most reliable COM at Berget --> the eminent cellphone. [ insert evil grin here ]

I know I and some other dedicated players can do a good job as HQ radio operator with a proper listening and interacting staff around us. But to be totally realistic I don't think that role has any real significance at Berget the way it was done on our side this year. What's needed now is a better organized multiple-batallion leadership concept.

Instead of 3-4 batallions operating uncoordinated and basically "competing & not shooting at each other" like another has pointed out takes place under the present game structure.

Time to get more mobile and flexible, as you said.

Let's do FOB and FAC next year - with a better fire coordination system and functional COM. And drop using that unwieldy howitzer prop unless there are more roads on the game area, The Härnösand game area has roads like a pretzel and is not fit for that much vehicle ops.
Last edited by motorhead on 19 Jul 2011, 23:28, edited 1 time in total.
Motörhead, SBA, Norway
B6: NATO, Oscar COY, 3rd PLT, 3rd squad
B7: NATO S6 - smoke signal operator
B8: Pol. 3rd Mount. S6/Liaison - ditto
B9: Pol. 3rd Mount. Com dude - ditto
B10: On leave
B11: Hot Dog

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Post by Ober-Lix » 19 Jul 2011, 23:09

motorhead wrote:
Instead of 3-4 batallions operating uncoordinated and basically "competing & not shooting at each other" like another has pointed out takes place under the present game structure.
Well. coordination worked very well among the three NAF Bats. at B9, so why should´nt it work among the Poldavians ?
Blackwolf, KVS and I we knew each other from previous Berget Events very well and we knew what was needed to make us work together without having long discussions about it.
We planed, we informed the men, we told them why and we did the job, period !
B6 2nd Bat. CO NATO
B7 Batallion CO Milo´s Tigers
B8 Batallion CO NAF 5th Infantry
B9. Batallion CO NAF 1st Mech
B10 R&R
B11 lets see
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Post by motorhead » 19 Jul 2011, 23:24

Overall both NAF and Poldavian may have done well tactically, but many players and units from a different perspective didn't see that coordination happen or function. Not uncommon in RS reality either.

We may have "fog-of-war" and lack of tactical situational awareness here, but obviously some natural differences in perspective. Failing COM and lack of inbase HQ functionality increases this info-flow problem.

Good thing we respawn next year and can do a better job.
Last edited by motorhead on 19 Jul 2011, 23:57, edited 2 times in total.
Motörhead, SBA, Norway
B6: NATO, Oscar COY, 3rd PLT, 3rd squad
B7: NATO S6 - smoke signal operator
B8: Pol. 3rd Mount. S6/Liaison - ditto
B9: Pol. 3rd Mount. Com dude - ditto
B10: On leave
B11: Hot Dog

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Post by A_Muller » 19 Jul 2011, 23:24

I can't really say that the coordination went that well.
We were never informed of any possible friendly units operating in an area and I witnessed multiple HUGE blue on blue incidents this year.

And never once did I see any re-enforcements in the form of anyone other than those of my own coy.

Now, I'm sure I didn't see close to everything, but when I saw 0% cooperation between companies I get the feeling that there was at least way too little cooperation.
B5: RTO, NATO Rangers
B9: Platoon Leader, NAF Rangers, Bravo 5

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