Feedback over all

Feedback and debriefings from Berget 12
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Mr Black
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Re: Feedback over all

Post by Mr Black » 06 Jul 2014, 18:23

To some degree I'm with Tiger_1 on this. I'm a lot into larping (obviously) and try to go off game as little as possible. But the airsoft community needs to tread carefully larping some things (e.g. genocide, torture, prostitution etc.). Why? Because that's the stuff that everyone take pictures of.

Therefore we need to ask ourselves: What do I wan't others to think about this great hobby?

For instance:
Tiger_1: Hey, I heard you were att a big event last week. What was it like?
Mr Black: Dude! It was awesome! I spent 4 days in the woods having a great time!
Tiger_1: Cool! You've got any pictures?
Mr Black: You bet I do! Have a look!
Tiger_1: ... eh. You spent 4 days in the woods posing for pictures and torturing or executing people?
Hic sunt mortem

Nemo me impune lacessit

B8 NAF 5th Infantry, Plt leader Echo Delta
B9 NAF 1st Mech Inf Btn, Coy CO Cobra 1
B10 NAF 2nd Mech Inf Btn, 2iC
B11 UA17 (Captain Black)
B12 Civilian (Jim Tom Mudwater)

Rabagast
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Re: Feedback over all

Post by Rabagast » 09 Jul 2014, 00:36

Overall I must say that this was a fun experience. Being a first timer travelling with a team of oldtimers, I was served a lot of comparisons and stories of previous Berget Games.

I can thank my boys from Team Flecktarn and Balder Platoon for the great time! You guys rock! As for the rest of the players, so do you!

About me, I was the Raven medic with the candy painkillers: Norwegian jelly men and swedish jelly cars: "Bilar". That would be "Hearts and minds"-medic giving away painkillers when meeting dead players from other factions! I hope I made my mark on your list as one of the positives! Every little "Bilar" helps!


Unfortunlately, it wasn't an unshared positive experience. Most of my feedback goes above the players, but there are some points.


Cheating. I meet some players who didn't take a hit, and one situation where it was claimed I didn't. If I didn't, it was absolutely not on purpose and I apologize deeply!
I did not see players cheating as much as I heard other people talk about it.

I would like to mention one incident. During the attack on the Border Police camp, I got thrown a grenade at my direction which didn't land very close. I looked at it when it gave off a 10 cm burst of gas. That was all. I thought it had to be a smoke, and turned to wait for the oncoming soldiers. Instead someone cried that I "had to have get hit". Nothing came out of the grenade exept the little burst of gas. No BBs. If so, they never made it down where I was hiding. However, I would like the player who threw that grenade to take som time to think of the concequences of throwing heavy things like that into unseen territory. The grenade were thrown from 15 meters atleast, uphill. This requires some momentum. I did not wear a helmet, and if that grenade had hit me, it actually could have caused damage. It could definetively have knocked my glasses off my face. If it were supposed to spray BBs after that, what then? We talked to a GM afterwards, who only said that throwing grenades is compared to shooting with an AEG, being the owners responsibility. This is actually dangerous!

I also saw some weird medic decisions, on both sides. Some medics were shooting while healing(I had a discussion about this in forum pregame, so I belive the common opinion were set.). I saw players running with medics, and I saw medics superhealing players. One medic even did that to me, he sat for about 15 seconds before he ran off. Instead of getting up, I took my time eating my sexcellent painkillers and taking a rest(I had actually been running before being shot!). I belive things like this is a attitude problem, and players doing this should be ashamed!


Next, the cars. There were a lot of cool creations. I especially liked the pimped out Vito rolling as PMC.

What didn't work, was the placement of the BAVS, but a lot of people have covered that. This is in my opinion BE mounting crew's responsibility. They made it possible on the british Land Rover turret. Why not on the other turrets?

I would also like some sort of requirement/limiting system for cars. Ravens had a shit load of cars, and as I could see we weren't the only ones. Of course this had to end up in some major clusterfuck, like the one in the southern border crossing/Waste plant road. Ingame vehicles can be cool, if done right. When half of the players have access to a car, it suddenly gets a bit overkill IMO. I would like to see more use of ingame civilian vehicles/more civilian activity along the roads. We had some control points along the roads, but only once a civilian taxi passed. We actually had to check a static civilian vehicle in town to see more.


The factions. I cant get around this. There were too many, which had to end up in some major scripting to unfuck. Like PMCs. They may work in an AS game as a small group working with some company somewhat parallell to the story, but with some major economically force not parting other than in suitcases and some tactical points. Making LARPing more efficient than just killing(like some major penalty if PMCs are not in control of point) could make it cool. It requires a dedicated group knowing what they go to, but can be cool. Other than that, no way.

For the rest, keep it to a minimum. Two major factions, and one or two noicemakers. Small groups messing with everyone guerilla style.


The "village". Not much of anything. A kiosk and a bar which closed down extremely early due to "serial suicide". If possible to use the old buildings from earlier games, do it! A camp of private tents will never be an ingame village.

Also, I had some hopes of this years shop setup, tho none of it came through(Ja jeg vet Espen...) If you can put up buildings, have an ingame market, maybe put several suppliers inside one big hall, like iron fort-size. This way you can have an ingame market, and making the village a bit more a village. Making some rules regarding attacks in the village, and you are go. (Like the market doors "close" when people are shooting. Everyone already inside are safe until they exit, everyone entering after shooting have started will be "killed". When shooting outside is over, doors "open" again.) The small tent with gloves and BBs were disappointing.


The scripting and story. What can I say. As a raven mech, we were hit hard and bad by this. We got several hours of sleeping in our car while waiting for nothing to happen because we weren't allowed to. And there were so much happening that made fuckall sense compared to the story, because someone above our HQ wanted it that way. A lot of people left during friday because they didn't want to sit around not being allowed by BE to do anything. I actually understand. I didn't travel all that way to sleep in an old mercedes! Of course, going AWOL is always an example, but as someone have mentioned earlier, that is a shitty idea. Leaving is a much better statement against the reason of your anger.

Make up a story, and make sure it is self sustaining. Make marked envelopes with missions and hand them out to the teams as to where they are in the story. Make them fully volunteer to finish, but have mission rewards so good that it is hard to let go. This way you can manipulate the story somewhat without microscripting the event to that point when players leave a full day early. About the same way you manipulate a kid to wear a cap outside. "Do you want the green or the red cap?" instead of "I say, you shall". Last time I attended to a game as scripted as this, it ended up being the last in that series.


Ravens. It was a blast playing together with you, and under the eminent leadership of 6mm.se in HQ.

The shooting of the BV206 from the gas station, by my team's AT4 guru and some other guy. The range had to be between 70 and 100 meters? Nice!

The two huge fights when attacking the Border Police camp and the last stand at the oilfields was excellent! It was a honor to serve with you. Our names shall forever be written in songs and the stars after our last stand!


At last:

One of the Raven players were hit just above the glasses in one of the T-sections of the road while we were hunting a GTC sniper team. The hit caused a good wound bleeding a bit. Luckily, I came prepared and had an RS medic pack prepared. I'm just wondering if things worked out alright with you? PM me if you see this!

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Re: Feedback over all

Post by Coffe » 09 Jul 2014, 01:23

@Rabagast:

Erm no, going AWOL is in fact NOT a shitty idea. Leaving the game as a form of protest however most certainly is.

By the time you've checked in BE already has your money for the ticket you bought. It's non-refundable, so it doesn't matter to them how dissatisfied you were personally about in-game scripting and if you leave because of it. They still get paid by you for their lackluster work in the mission control/scripting department.

Their only reaction will only be along the lines of: "Oh well, too bad you didn't like it. We'll tell you that we will improve next year so you can get cheated out of your money yet again. We'll still be in control of scripting whether you like it or not! :) "

So really, why should they care if you leave? The have absolutely no reason to care.

If you go AWOL on the other hand and start finding enemies and missions on your own, and say "f**k it!" to the GM's and mission control, they will be forced to care. Because on the one hand you aren't breaking any rules by going AWOL (it's perfectly legit), but on the other the GM's are gonna have to deal with the headache of AWOL players (or even entire units) possibly messing up their plans and scripted in-game events.

Going AWOL is the absolutely best form of protest in this regard. It's the only way to make BE learn that their pre-scripted methods of handling Berget doesn't sit well with a lot of us, and that they need to give the in-game factions control of how many units they can send where and when.

If you want to make people change, leaving in anger won't do anything. Causing trouble however, will.

Plus you often find more fun going AWOL than sitting around in a snoozefest waiting for orders to come down. Everytime I've taken my squad AWOL we had an absolute blast and never got disappointed because of it.

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matte_wo
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Re: Feedback over all

Post by matte_wo » 09 Jul 2014, 02:10

Coffee, If I understand it correctly, after reading trough all the feedback, one of your major concerns is that GMs told you how many men you could send and where... How many times exactly did this happen?

When it comes to AWOL:
As part of berget mission controll, my sole purpose is to be part of creating a game that is fun and fair for ALL players: MILSIMers, LARPers, Speedballers, young people, older people, from the lowest of grunts to the highest in command, for new players and for the veterans, from many different countries. I do not want the game to be scripted, but I want it to follow some sort of storyline, to create a cool experience, an interactive adventure that can end in several ways. I want to create a story in which commanders are free to create their own missions, along side the ones that we hand out to carry the story forward. Missions could fail or be a success, and that alters how the game ends.

If you leave the game early in anger, I will take that as clear sign that I have failed MY mission. Every year I see players leave early, and every year it saddens me to see those people leave because I have faild in my attempts to create a good game for them, and it has always made me wonder: "What can I and we do better next year?". On the other hand, if you go AWOL, I will just think that you are an A-hole, not caring for nobody than yourself, not giving a crap about chain of command, missions and other airsofters. What if, at precisely that point that you decide to go AWOL, maybe an important event is scheduled to take place, or you just shoot the wrong person, and the whole storyline and game balance is destroyed? That AWOL action does not just ruin the game as we have planned it, but it also ruins the game for every other person. "The wings of a buttefly" someone have written in the feedback...

So please, keep giving us this feedback that we need to create this awsome experience that is Berget, but yet again please, coffee, do not encourage bad behaviour that makes the game fun for you and your friends, and ruins the game for others. Before leaving in anger, and deffenitly before going AWOL, talk to us. Tell us your concern and we will try to adjust things, even though we risk the "scripting" that many of you seem to disslike.

Thank you.
Matte-Wo AKA Vestin

B4 - Photo
B6 - Crew, UN medic, UN 2ndCO, GM
B7-10 - Crew/GM/GMHQ
B12 - Mission Controll
B13 - LARP coordinator

"…no plan of operations extends with any certainty beyond the first contact with the main hostile force..."

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Lazt
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Re: Feedback over all

Post by Lazt » 09 Jul 2014, 10:18

I think its pretty clear that this years berget sucked. Hard.


In conclusion:
Berget crew needs to balance the game properly, have less factions, better game area (3 roads wtf) better/convincing civilian village and use smarter means of controlling the flow of the game. The only contested point for all of berget was southern crossing. I would be ashamed.

/Signed: Ten guys who left early after a silly friday and missed the even more silly saturday. :wank:
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grasulas
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Re: Feedback over all

Post by grasulas » 09 Jul 2014, 16:04

This is the sixth Berget game for me was not the best but not the worst :), I`m confident that Berget Crew can learn from mistakes and even when they are not up to my expectations, they have the potential to organize amazing games, I thank you guys for this and be sure I will be there next year.

Review of the game:
- To many factions resulting in a very unbalance conflict, ends bad for both sides lots of anger and anxiety.
- Rangers: milsim faction, very good idea but to few to be a major player on the chess board, like some one said more like a noise maker, multiplier of force if you want.
- Next year give Ian (Wormbyte) a bigger faction to run he has the experience and the charisma to make from that faction a major player, I`m sure he will like to run a smaller very milsim unit but we need people like him in charge of the bigger units capable to inspire and demand respect from those many not so milsim players.
- Please create a maximum allowed number of cars for each faction, having one side with 3:1 cars just because people can pay for a BAV receiver will not make the game fun for both of the forces.
- To many problems with Bavs receivers who do not work or inappropriately mounted.
- The new SP resources system is to complicated imo, I like it more the old one with the buttons :).
- To many people using Bavs grenades from the hand, WTF people that's not very milsim like ....
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Re: Feedback over all

Post by M.Svensson » 09 Jul 2014, 16:29

The biggest problem with GCT was that when we went on a mission it was pretty much always all of the GCT members in one group. I think it would be better with more groups of 6-8 people being inside lerando sabotaging and delaying raven units through ambushing their mechs. That would have given the ravens and yuris something to worry about.
Berget 11 - GCT SFODU, GOLF
Berget 12 - GCT 9th SF infantry, ECHO
Berget 13 - GCT Special Parachute Infantry, ALPHA

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Tiger_1
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Re: Feedback over all

Post by Tiger_1 » 09 Jul 2014, 17:38

Ok, seems time to add a few points. I have played Berget since B5, and played with multiple factions, two main factions and at all levels of command. I can say that with out a doubt, two main forces fighting each other is most fun for me.

Berget for me is the chance to move out with large units to fight other large units of airsofters, and as a commander, I would like to be able to decide how I move those units out to solve what missions.

Berget, you really must stop scripting as much as you do. Some of you in Berget crew might have seen that I no longer wish to command a unit at Berget, reason being, stupid Berget scripted end of B10 with a truck that I was given the mission to protect that moved on it's own, refusing to stop or follow any orders from the troops tasked with protecting it, big surprise, the other side believe they won (and although I don't really care about winning or losing, it would be nice that I lost to the enemy's good defending, not Berget being silly)

Moving on to B12, ambush of the PMC force on Thursday night. Scripted so bad that I walked away from the "fight" with a real bitter tast in my mouth (even sent a buddy of mine playing PMC, a text apologising for Berget behaviour). From what I am reading, this was not the only scripted things in B12.

Airsoft needs good commanders that are given freedom to be commanders. Berget should provide the storyline, overall commanders intent, and mission objectives. Then leave it up to commanders to solve missions as he sees best. Also, good commanders will not play many games run like B10/11/12, as now might be the case with raven command, and that is Berget losing good commanders for a dumb reason! Also, give a few general missions that will last for the entire game, so you never really run out of missions.

And I know I am treading on all the larp guys, but I belive I am talking for a lot of airsofters, when I say, please move on to a different event, or at least stay in you small camp and pretend to be who ever you want there, so people that want to have something to do with you can go there, and you can leave the rest of us alone to play airsoft.
This year I had a commander who was so in to his pretend to be someone talk about something make belive, that he forgot the mission he him self stood and briefed us on one hour before. Next day, he took 30 airsofters with him to stand around and watch him make belive for an hour more..

Trouble, as I have mentioned you above, I will say that nothing personal about you, you seemed like a nice guy. You also did a good job with updates on the storyline (but a 20 min missions brief should not contain 15 min of "this cool shit happend" and 5 min "do you guys feel like going down this road and do this") I am "new" to airsoft mec, and one of your guys told me about your past history with airsoft mec, that made me think "ok, let's see how this workes out". Short answer, it did not. You have little to no plan, and you lack any tactical insight. I know commanders are hard to come by, but consider not being one next time, you might learn a thing or two. All that said, when we did cool stuff it was fun rolling with the guys of Orlov mec.

POW treatment has been covered, but I belive Berget needs to get some rules in place for that.

Did not see any cheating, and the up's and downs of bavs is always fun ;)

For now I plan to come back for B13, and I hope Berget will adjust back to more focus on letting people shoot bb's at each other in company sice elements and solving tactical missions. Please reduce the civilian and larp element to a minimum and make sure you give commanders the freedom and respect they need to provide a good game to their players.

Thanks to all players, you make the game, just wish we could play airsoft.....

Panther 1, 2 and 3, great rolling with you :)
"go to your God like a soldier!"

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Obi-San
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Re: Feedback over all

Post by Obi-San » 09 Jul 2014, 23:10

Tiger_1 wrote:Ok, seems time to add a few points.......

..........
For now I plan to come back for B13, and I hope Berget will adjust back to more focus on letting people shoot bb's at each other in company sice elements and solving tactical missions. Please reduce the civilian and larp element to a minimum and make sure you give commanders the freedom and respect they need to provide a good game to their players.

Thanks to all players, you make the game, just wish we could play airsoft.....
+++++

This turns to be a big LARP event with this amount of fractions and "civilians".

At B7 we had couples of Coys coming just to reinforce attack... Now its turned absurd with characters chatting and pretending
B7 - Orlov Mercs
B8 - Civilian Field Intelligence
B9 - Home Support Team
B10 - Mountaineers Foreign Legion
B11 - SVR Spetsnaz
B12 - Power Ranger
B13 - SADF Paras
B14 - Shadow of the NAF
B15 - NAF infantry. All of it
B16 - UPIR shareholder
B17 - TF Gecko

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Jerry_ASP
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Re: Feedback over all

Post by Jerry_ASP » 10 Jul 2014, 01:26

So, let's get to it:

Overall, I enjoyed this year. Ravens had good command, I had good people in my platoon... but I guess that most of my satisfaction is thanks to either Ravens command, or "making it good for ourselves", meaning good cooperation with other units, and picking interesting missions, so that is not connected with gamemasters that much.

1) I speak for fewer strong fractions as well. Red vs Blue, with two or three small fractions with own interests for balancing purposes. If there has to be a unit for hire, it should be small. Fifty or so. Not 200, as PMC's were.

2) The overall scenario and story was, I think, unfortunate (bad idea in other words). We had 7 factions and most of them were more or less neutral to each other in the beginning, some of them even secret, hidden between civvies. The story then takes long time to develop. Some outfits did not see action (And by that I mean any game action, not just shooting) until second day afternoon, simply because there was no clear situation. From my airsoft and LARP experience I say: make it simple, simple, simple. Choose the right people for HQ's and they will add spice to it.

3) Cheating. Well. I didn't see any cheating with my own eyes. But men from my platoon reported players without armbands in Orlov ranks in the last fight. What is worse, a nearby Gamemasters did not seem to care about this when told by one of my men. That was really a wtf moment.
http://www.asp.g6.cz/

B10: Zansian Black Guard (D 2-9)
B12: Lerando Republican Guard (Charlie plt leader)
B14: Upir Infantry

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Re: Feedback over all

Post by Qwerty » 10 Jul 2014, 05:26

Pricing in Orlov's kiosk was interesting. Burger meal which should have included burger, soda and french fries was 8 euros in price list but fries were out-of-stock and I had to still pay 8 euros. This isn't a big deal but one or two euro discount would be nice in situation like this.

edit: I heard many times how people scream "Don't shoot a****e Im already hit!" etc. It is your own fault if A) you don't use dead rag or don't have one at all (saw many like this) or B) it's too small to be seen. Because of cheaters many players shoot until they see orange which sucks if you have your all fancy Crye Precision gear and no dead rag :|
B10 Zanzia
B11 GCT
B12 Yuri Orlov
B13 GCT
B14 NAF Mech
B15 NAF Mech

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Mr Black
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Re: Feedback over all

Post by Mr Black » 10 Jul 2014, 08:54

Tiger_1 wrote:And I know I am treading on all the larp guys, but I belive I am talking for a lot of airsofters, when I say, please move on to a different event, or at least stay in you small camp and pretend to be who ever you want there, so people that want to have something to do with you can go there, and you can leave the rest of us alone to play airsoft.
I'm really not interested of being an animal at the zoo that airsofters can visit if they get bored.
Hic sunt mortem

Nemo me impune lacessit

B8 NAF 5th Infantry, Plt leader Echo Delta
B9 NAF 1st Mech Inf Btn, Coy CO Cobra 1
B10 NAF 2nd Mech Inf Btn, 2iC
B11 UA17 (Captain Black)
B12 Civilian (Jim Tom Mudwater)

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Re: Feedback over all

Post by talqari » 10 Jul 2014, 09:14

I played as civilian, deputy sheriff of Dolina. So i was half of the police force. I'm an airsofter and never larped so much, but still I enjoyed my time larping. I actually want to thank all the civilians for their effort towards larping. It was fun to see that people really had characters and stories to tell.

At this point I want to ask you all: isn't airsoft larping overall? I mean i.e. you play as ravens squad leader etc. You are larping to be the squad leader, but with your own name and own person. So what differs this from larp role as police. The fact that i was having a different name, not my own, as a police. My name or not I was still the same person. And besides I was in undercover role for GCT. So the fake name was sort of must in this case.

As feedbak, more stories and background to your "characters"/roles people. Not necessary larping, but more empathazing with the role you are playing. Otherwise there are just boring masses of people to shoot. And when theres this much people it will be just plain stupid/boring/just normal day at weekend skirmish without someone giving their best shot to larping and being civilians.

About cheating. I will apologize my language towards one sothern european PMC guy. Sorry. But you deserved it, next time take your eye to your hand and look before going trigger happy. Specially in this case where I was sitting on the sheriff office's porch with my death rag (50x70cm) on my head. You smarta** came around the corner and pulled the trigger and full auto sprayed my face, from the distance of 1 meter. All this happened while we looked each others straight to the eyes. Thanks for that. And sorry for the shouting and bad language.

A lot, I mean a LOT of blindfire happened in Dolina. I've talked to game masters about this. I hope one of the "tax collectors" have reported the incident that happened at the last fight around the iron walls. He dug out the bb from his lower lip, when some gentleman pushed a pistol under the wall, from a gap under 10 cm high and went trigger happy right on this guys face.
Last edited by talqari on 10 Jul 2014, 15:50, edited 1 time in total.
B12 - GCT : Deputy sheriff of Dolina - "Do you have a license for that?"
B13 - Civilian : President of Sons of matriarch - "I don't give a flying --- SPAM !!! ---!"
B14 - Civilian : Chief Executive Janitor of Nordmark Sinecure Department - "I have some work not to be done!"

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Re: Feedback over all

Post by Hazardous » 10 Jul 2014, 09:38

Tiger_1 wrote:And I know I am treading on all the larp guys, but I belive I am talking for a lot of airsofters, when I say, please move on to a different event, or at least stay in you small camp and pretend to be who ever you want there, so people that want to have something to do with you can go there, and you can leave the rest of us alone to play airsoft.
This year I had a commander who was so in to his pretend to be someone talk about something make belive, that he forgot the mission he him self stood and briefed us on one hour before. Next day, he took 30 airsofters with him to stand around and watch him make belive for an hour more..
And none of the guys he took with hem where humored about this I take it?
Well if we would not have any LARP int he game, the whole event would suck major, it would just be one damn big weekend game.
For example, thous who have met President Rico? What would the game story and missions, the whole point be if we would not have him? Damn we could have replaced him with a cardboard copy in that case.

How about the game flow?
All the sudden changes in the game flow, half of the missions come from damn LARP outcome incident somewhere.
The same goes for Alliances and how commanders wish to "play out" the cards.

I'm sorry but I must say that it seems to be you who have had a bad day and if you think thought like this? Maybe it is some one else that maybe would need to reevaluate their opinions or consider other events.
-Mike
B8: NAF 3rd Ranger
B9: NAF 3rd Ranger - PlSgt
B10: NAF 3rd Ranger - PlSgt
B11: Head of Rico's bodyguards
B12: Blood Raven - 2IC
B13: IKAROS Cerberus - 2IC
B14: Arrival of my first born
B15: UPIR Command
B16: Merc

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Mark Karmann
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Re: Feedback over all

Post by Mark Karmann » 10 Jul 2014, 11:14

Hazardous wrote:Well if we would not have any LARP int he game, the whole event would suck major, it would just be one damn big weekend game.
+1 Wich i can attend to just a few klicks away for less cash.

IMHO a Story-driven gameplay, the middelway so to speek, is the way to go!
Respect is earned, not given!

BG12: PMC Rifleman

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