HPA and the future

Feedback and debriefings from Berget 16
Tony Björklund
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by Tony Björklund » 03 Jul 2018, 15:24

I was pritty chocked at the chronostation when i asked about the locks (i had got tournament-locks for both my tippmanns) and the crew told me that they dint have cable-ties for it and couldent lock them. It is writen in Berget rules and needs to be enforced. Ofcourse i understand that the person that realy want to cheat might find a way to do so, but Berget-Events have to try and do their best to stopp cheating and locking HPA regulators and guns is a great step. Also some kind of tamperproof teip would be nice on all guns, today wiht all the new quick-spring change systems its very easy to just chrono a AEG with a low fps spring and afterwars change it whit a stronger spring.

This is all about safty.

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Re: HPA and the future

Post by mouse » 03 Jul 2018, 15:35

Have one or two crew-men out 24/7 too do random chronoing and checking it against the zip-tie on the gun would probably help having people keeping too the rules.

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Re: HPA and the future

Post by surface » 03 Jul 2018, 18:32

Majk wrote:
03 Jul 2018, 10:38
Yes VSAF rules are verry good. It is on top of my list IF we dont come up with a easier and/or better one.
This would be so much easier. Also the option for 5m MED is appriciated and could lower the amount injuries in certain situations.
Also do chrono with playing BB weight. Or, use something heavier like .3

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Re: HPA and the future

Post by Cameron-115 » 03 Jul 2018, 19:05

I Agree that there is an issue with how berget manage HPA guns. No effort at all was made this year to tournament lock HPA regulators even though alot of them have built in locks that only need a cable tie. I have used HPA at the last two bergets and there are at least 10 guys on my team that also use them and not a single one was locked by berget crew this year at the chrono station. What i have done the last couple of years is set the reg in front of berget crew at chrono and lock it myself in front of them but this isn't good enough because if i wanted i could cut the cable tie turn up the pressure and re-lock it.

Berget need to have a special color cable tie maybe one that's permanently marked or engraved so it cannot be replaced if removed this should be put on the reg and the M/S marked on it at chrono also the wolverine wraith stock or similar products should be chronoed separately and locked with tamper proof stickers.

But the most important thing that needs to be done is random spot checks by berget crew, all game marshals should carry a chrono and should check players as often as possible. in the 4 bergets I've been to I've never been spot checked or even heard on anyone who has. Its very hard to tamper with your reg and then turn it down to the exact M/S you chronoed with if you dont have a chrono. so even if someone turned up their reg and then put it back down again a GM should be able to find out as the first chrono reading and the spot check reading would be different. The last thing that needs to be done is berget must enforce very strict penalties on those found to be tampering with their HPA or any gun.

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Re: HPA and the future

Post by jdoe » 03 Jul 2018, 19:21

Arradin wrote:
01 Jul 2018, 21:15
There were a few tooth ingurys this year, but none of them were due to hpa Guns. The one in the village was Done with a pistol chroned under 70. Its not always a matter of hard shooting Guns just bad luck.

We also chroned more Guns than ever in the field this year.

In the end, people Who want to cheat Will find a way to cheat, there is only so much that we can do as organizers
With a pistol shooting under 70?

Come on. 3 teeth broken. And the fire came from the vehicle driving by.

So, if you cannot remove cheating from your events, you rather do nothing different?
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by jdoe » 03 Jul 2018, 19:31

Majk wrote:
03 Jul 2018, 10:15
Yes, our current system have flaws, especially towards HPA and joulecreep. We are considering a new system for next year. I wanted to switch this year but we felt a big change like this needs to be done long before game (pref. ticket release) and we wasnt sure it would expose new problems.
The chronocrew was new and any mistakes they did was mine not preparing them enough.

New system need to consider many aspects:
Easy to understand (rookies)
Fast (2k takes time to chrono)
Flexible (chrono in field)
Cover HPA
Consider Joulecreep
Make it hard to cheat

We will consider suggestions, keep em coming.
Excellent answer and a big thank you for hearing our concerns.
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by jdoe » 03 Jul 2018, 19:44

There used to be random chrono-checks ingame, I don't know why it was dropped.

And I agree with most comments above, problem is not HPA but the cheating and/or disregarding attitude of some players to other's safety. Also, HPA multiplies the potential damage and thus it should be addressed accordingly.

I agree on chronoing with heavier BBs and hop on. Also, as I said after last year, the quality of the BBs is important. Last year I got Cat 1 on all my guns, even though I was certain two of them were in Cat 2. So I took it to myself not to use them point blank. My main gun also had a very low chrono-result, and when I came back to base after check-in, I had one chrono-BB stuck into my feedtube. Had to use force to get it out. Luckily they didn't damage my hop-up.

This year, the same gun chronoed at about 105 m/s at check-in. The day before I chronoed the gun at my home, and it shot at about 120 (1.45J) with the G&G BBs I was using ingame.

So please, take this seriously and use proper BBs for chronoing. You can easily lessen the damage to players and their equipment by doing things properly. And take the sanctions seriously. Last year, I heard there was a breach of the rules regarding MPS limits and MSD, and it didn't result in ban, only a "severe no-no". That doesn't work. Sanctions need to be implemented properly, otherwise they are totally useless.
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by Helvetica » 03 Jul 2018, 21:04

I use my HPA Gun just at BE, and so i still had the blue zipptie at the Gun and even one on my tournament lock. But when i was chroning and told the chronoguy, he just said, this year no tournementlocks were needed. He wrote down my pressure and the 108 m/2 ive got. I let the zipptie at my tournament lock, but it yould have been very easy to cheat.

BUT, as said before, if sb wants to cheat and pushes his weapon up to a certain amount of power, its always possible and not a matter of HPA or PTW or anything else.
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by Panzergraf » 03 Jul 2018, 23:27

Blåbär wrote:
02 Jul 2018, 16:24
When I chrono my HPA i asked about the tournament lock. the answer i got back was that they wrote down my pressure & M/S and my booking no.
thats all. got a bit confused also.
Honestly I think that's the way to do it (if BE can keep track of all the guns/players - which is another question).
Personally I brought two HPA guns, with very different systems (Shoei and Wolverine) running very different pressures, 120 and 70 PSI respectively.
Even with a tournament lock, if I wanted to cheat I could still just switch the regulators around.

The best way to avoid damage/injuries will always be for players to use their heads.
I was leading the column of UPIR cars past the Merc village (Eagle 2-1 btw), and we were fired upon at seriously short range, with guns that probably had a minimum engagement distance. The gun shield on my car had some dents, and the plexiglass in the side of the turret was cracked (not that you need much more than a stock TM to do that), and I'm glad I told my gunner to duck down when we passed.
Why would anyone pepper car windows like that anyway, when it has no effect in game? Of course we are prepared for our in game cars to sustain light damage in the heat of the fight, but it's a fine line between that and what almost ammounts to vandalism...


I wouldn't blame HPA for this. Cheating the chrono is possible with other systens too - swapping a PTW cylinder is quicker than changing the pressure on an HPA regulator, not to mention having mags with more powergul gas for your GBB than you chronoed with.

In general, players should not be afraid of policeing their team mates. There has to be other Mercs around who saw this.
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by Arradin » 03 Jul 2018, 23:41

Its not a merc issue, its a player issue.

There was an upir vehicle spraying people ik the face with a turret gunner at less than 5m on that spot, and we had incidents with blues aswell. It doesnt matter What weapon or What rules we have when people have mental breakdowns.

Please keep on topic, this is about HPA
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by Majk » 04 Jul 2018, 00:50

jdoe wrote:
03 Jul 2018, 19:44
There used to be random chrono-checks ingame, I don't know why it was dropped.

And I agree with most comments above, problem is not HPA but the cheating and/or disregarding attitude of some players to other's safety. Also, HPA multiplies the potential damage and thus it should be addressed accordingly.

Last year, I heard there was a breach of the rules regarding MPS limits and MSD, and it didn't result in ban, only a "severe no-no". That doesn't work. Sanctions need to be implemented properly, otherwise they are totally useless.
I will try to free up time to do more field chronings next year, it makes alot of sense to follow up the reglar chroning with one in field. Its a question of personell wich i have limited of, but maybe with some better planing it can be done.

Other than the yearly false rumor of HPA-sniper penetrating walls of tin-fortress we had a case at B14 were we searched after a 'hot gun' without success.

Off-topic rant:
Couple of years ago we had less focus on injuries and more on field chroning and alkohol checks. SEC has
a crew of 4-6 Hard working members that covers the games day and night. Some years its calm and there is more time for field chronings, some years the phone rings with new case before you solved the current one. Weather and area affect injuries alot! (Sollefteå has not been kind) Player disputes and serious injuries takes alot of time to solve. Two major solutions for this is:
-Players need to pick up their friends more after 'solved cases', alot of time is spent on driving players to base, or pickin them up at doctor or hospital.
- Players need to be better to take armbandID/reg plate. Alot of our time is spent on searching. If we get a clear serious violation, we want to make an effort even if the description of the offender can be vauge.
Last edited by Majk on 04 Jul 2018, 13:03, edited 10 times in total.
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by Lester » 04 Jul 2018, 01:02

Arradin wrote:
03 Jul 2018, 23:41
Its not a merc issue, its a player issue.

There was an upir vehicle spraying people ik the face with a turret gunner at less than 5m on that spot, and we had incidents with blues aswell. It doesnt matter What weapon or What rules we have when people have mental breakdowns.

Please keep on topic, this is about HPA
You are right, this is not a merc thing.

But its a hpa thing and like u said ppl have breakdowns and Can in seconds turn up the heat

Leaving it there.
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by Panzergraf » 04 Jul 2018, 01:34

Arradin wrote:
03 Jul 2018, 23:41
Its not a merc issue, its a player issue.
I never said it's a merc thing, I said it's a people not policeing players on their own team-thing. Which in this case was mercs.
Only the guys around the one shooting through the window - other merc players - had any chance of identifying his armband number.
As you said, a player issue.
Lester wrote:
04 Jul 2018, 01:02
But its a hpa thing and like u said ppl have breakdowns and Can in seconds turn up the heat
I have never seen anyone turn up the pressure like that on a whim. And if someone did, other players around would notice.
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by Arginj » 04 Jul 2018, 09:22

I was also part of the UPIR convoy that passed the Merc village. We got totally mashed on by HPA laser beams on our car windows, almost like they were aiming for the windows just to do damage. As you can see earlier in the thread one car window broke, and my window was also sprayed like f*cking crazy by HPA guns with ridiculous rps. I think we were lucky it didn’t break, since we had a lot of white dents on the window and also real dents in the metal around it.

I have heard there’s a ROF limit on Berget. Is this really a thing? If not, it really should be. Having a HPA gun with 50 rps is not fun, regardless if it is on a player or a car.

And another thing; spraying excessively on the car windows should be forbidden in order to minimize the risk of real injuries.
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by jdoe » 04 Jul 2018, 14:44

I would guess shooting at the windows is done at the heat of the moment, since if they are open, you can actually score hits on the crew (as per rules) and maybe some people don't realize when the windows are closed or open. Also, shooting at the turret does make sense, since if you get a BB through some hole or opening, that is a hit on the gunner.

Personally I shot at the turrets, and sometimes to the front and rear area of the moving vehicle, if I saw people advancing with them. Didn't shoot at the chassis of the car (at windows) because I really couldn't tell if they were open or not.

We shot at UPIR attacking the village mostly from the inside of our office building and our full-auto guns were all category 2 at the maximum. The range between the road and the office is well over 10m so it was safe to assume we could fire on the road and beyond. We had no HPA guns in our team. And we never opened fire on anyone until our personnel or the building was shot at first.

My XM has a very high ROF, which might confuse some people to think it is HPA. I mostly shot short bursts, but if I saw a lot of people or wanted to suppress someone in the bushes, I let it fly, so to speak, minding the MSD of course.
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