Cheating as a strategy?

Feedback e debriefings from Berget 7.
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Have you encountered the same cheating guys in italian camo?

yes
140
73%
no
51
27%
 
Total votes: 191

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gom
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Cheating as a strategy?

Post by gom » 29 Jun 2009, 15:49

I would like to thank the Berget crew for a great job done.
Considering that they had to face the situation when landlord of the area originally intended for Berget 7 refused to rent it, and that they had to prepare all the game from scratch in a completely different location, the event was really great!

My worse feelings about Berget 7 rise from the absolutely dishonorable behaviour of certain players on NATO side.
I have met also players on the NATO side, which were really honest and admitted all the hits, but this is definitely the case of many players in italian digital camouflage. I have heard so many complaints against their behaviour from players from all other sides, that I can't call it then a systematic cheating strategy.

Few examples encountered only by members of our team, but definitely not the only complaints about these Terminators I have heard:

1) my team mate was lying behind a house in Bashir city, when he saw a medic in italian camo, appr. 10m from him. He did not want to attract other opponents, so he decided to shott on semi-auto, and shot appr. 3 shots at the medic. The medic has shaken himself after feeling the shots, then he looked around and when he did not see anyone, he wanted to continue without admitting the hits. Only after my teammate waved at him from his cover, showing him that he has seen him, the medic slowly raised his hand and shouted "Hit"

2) In another attack of Bashir city, another teammate was hit and was waiting on the ground for medic. At that time an opponent in italian camo came to appr. 1m from him. At that moment this opponent was spotted by another member of our team, and was shot upon. My injured colleague who was lying 1m from this guy, hass clearly heard and seen that he has been hit by maybe 10 BBs (from maybe 5 meters - the hits definitely were not weak, and that guy has felt them for sure), but continued to fight without admitting it.

3) After another such incident one of these guys was asked for his Berget ID, to be reported to the game marshalls. He rejected it in very rude words, and the only way how to get the number was to attack him physically.

4) After another such non-admitting incident the commander of the cheating person was called in. He listened to the story, then just told to our guys "Let it be!" and went away.

The above are just few examples of many and many such stories...
Maybe there are some honest and honorable italian airsoft players, and maybe some of them were also on Berget 7, but after these experience I can say only one thing:
If I would ever see italian teams in the list participants list on ANY airsoft event, it would be a very strong reason for not going to that event at all - and I recommend the same to all of you...

I do not complain against Berget crew, as they did what they can (i.e. in the final battles for Bashir City walking among these Terminators and pointing to these who were hit, sending them to respawn), and I am also aware that Berget crew was informed late about this - most of the people simply could not trust their eyes and tried not to complain and not to report against others, I just want to inform and warn the european airsoft community.

If I am wrong and most of you have met italian players to play honestly and fair, please, correct me, but after all my opinion is that it was not an individual failure, but a systematic trend, almost looking like a pre-arranged strategy (winning through non admitting hits)

I know that this is a highly controversial topic, and I would not open it if I would not be so pissed off by it.

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SenorDingDong
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Post by SenorDingDong » 29 Jun 2009, 15:55

Cheating is not something that an entire nationality should be tarred and feathered with.

Perhaps you should edit that element of the post.

BTW, I do sympathize with the obstacles that you encountered.
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Post by Sebbe » 29 Jun 2009, 15:57

Sadly, as a NATO soldier i also felt that most(NOT ALL! Some were very cool!) of Lima* company went rouge many-many times.

*Lima, yes, not Italians, but Lima (altough most of them were italians).
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gom
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Post by gom » 29 Jun 2009, 16:03

SenorDingDong wrote:Cheating is not something that an entire nationality should be tarred and feathered with.

Perhaps you should edit that element of the post.

BTW, I do sympathize with the obstacles that you encountered.
You are rioght, of course behaviour like cheating is not related to nationality, and I am pretty sure there were also italians who have admitted the hits all the time, but it is not enough - if someone from my own team would play dishonestly, I would at least speak with him and would insist on improving it, if not reporting him to the crew directly, but noone from the italian team did this, as far as I know.

I have formulated it so strongly intentionally - as airsoft is a game based of honest admitting of hits - so such a dishonorable behaviour should be properly treated - and the honest players from the italian team should find and report the cheaters themselves (as noone else was closer to them all the time, so they should know very well who was it), or to be considered guilty as well...

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SenorDingDong
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Post by SenorDingDong » 29 Jun 2009, 16:13

If I saw someone on my team cheat, I would shoot them myself.
Unfortunately, they are too honest and I never get the chance.

But it's walking away the bigger man (or woman) that makes us better, not arguing with them.

I also encountered my own fair share of cheating, which was really sad for such a high profile event, but I'll never let that kind of behavior hinder what was an otherwise amazing week.
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Post by Roska » 29 Jun 2009, 16:19

Lol, I and a big part of my teammates felt the same way, but we decided not to complain about this and just ignore them. We did hear a lot about the exact same players from ALL sides and from all nationalities and now that this topic is here, I do think it's time to throw in my 2 cents.

There was some big time rule-ignoring thing going on with players, who mostly seemed to use digital italian camo. Perhaps not all of them, maybe not all the italians, but it does look bad. One bad apple can ruin the reputation of whole bunch of apples.

I luckily had only few encounters with these cheating players and I didn't mind it much. What did annoy me was the shouting of "take your hits!" by these very same players. One of them sprayed shit load of bb's in the the general direction of my fellow team mates (I was laying down on the ground as I was already shot earlier) and immediately started yelling "take your hits! shit! take your hits!". Now, I wasn't exactly in the place he was, but to me it seemed that he was just shooting somewhere and hoping to get kills by yelling or something :P Anyways, it didn't sound nice at all.

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HardCoil
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Post by HardCoil » 29 Jun 2009, 16:26

Of course it's not italians who cheat. There are however TEAMS that use cheating as a strategy (we have them here in Denmark as well), and it seems that we had a rather large team of that type of team from Italy at Berget this year. We also had an extended firefight with these people and we will be collecting the best "cheating Italian" stories for a post here later.

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Post by Iota` » 29 Jun 2009, 16:31

Sadly few bad apples isn't really portraying the truth what happened this year. When there's a group of about 100 players doing what they want regardless of their role and rank it doesn't seem the rotten apples are scarce.

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Post by Arcador » 29 Jun 2009, 16:53

Nato Fox 4 alpha DM reporting in:

Unfortunately there is difference between HIT for different players. No generalization here - it differ from player to player.

Some do intentionally hide hits, some might not not feel/detect the hit (no blaming them, it happens) but some are like...obvious.

I personally have died from ricochets, branches hitting me, random shots barely touching me and so on... for me there is no time to analyze - call the hit, it is a game.

When bleeding since you are no longer 'in the action' you can observe the surroundings a lot more easier rather in a firefight, thus I've seen very different style of play. Some players seem to only call their hits when they feel it - sound cue is disabled for them (although the sound of bb hitting clothing is VERY specific). Others tend to ignore the random shots that accidentally hit them i.e. - "this was not for me and just breezed me..." and in one occasion I saw a guy yelled "Ouch" one my buddy hit him and he didn't count his hit. It was pretty funny...he finally called it but for sure it was big struggle for him.

My final observations:

YO - calling their hits in 95% of my experience, had 2-3 strange occasions but overall very fair guys. Seen groups of 20-30 going flagged at respawn.

Milos - had not close visual with them, seen only groups of guys going home. So far they are fair.

SPR - most of the time we had issues with them, like some of the hits were not hits for them. Keep in mind this is OVERALL, not taking all at once, I've seen some pretty cool SPR guys. When you see several minor rules breaking you just feel something isn't right - like seeing guys with HIGHCAP, others that get hit, lie down, and several minutes they stand up and fire again (Quote of the day: Blackwolf hits a guy, he lies down and several minutes later he stands up and shoots again "Hey, I killed ya mo...!") And overall never seen more than 7-8 SPR guys moving flagged at once. Too much little slips.

Don;t get me wrong, SPR got very good maneuverability and flanking - so far the best I've seen but the minor stuff I described tunes down the feeling a little.

Final word - it is airsoft, and we don't die. For me personally I have nothing to lose when calling hit.

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Post by Lesjak » 29 Jun 2009, 16:53

My teammembers in India 4 got all shot by Lima during the game. NATO supposed to be a check first then shoot faction, not some killing spree faction. From what I've heard, Lima was responsible for the attack on bashir. Also a below level crime was that they didnt apply a medic upon teamkilling.

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HubbeGubben
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Post by HubbeGubben » 29 Jun 2009, 16:57

Thats why we in Nato called them Kellys Heros

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Hyrican
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Post by Hyrican » 29 Jun 2009, 17:08

Bigest cheaters were from SRP and Orlow cuz they never called hits envent from 5 m shots through trees and vegatation..(WTF!! bulletproof vegetation?).

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Murrdohk
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Post by Murrdohk » 29 Jun 2009, 17:11

I agree. It's not any particular nationalitties that were cheating but certain individuals or group. It just sucks for everyone that doesn't cheat to have to put up with thses people. There's two instances I can recall right off when I encountered cheating, once on my own NATO team...not my company or platoon mind you...and once by a player on Yuri Orlov's team. The thing that really sucks is when someone that's been hit and doesn't call himself out keep playing and kilss other peple that aren't cheating. It's not fair for them to have to be out of the game when they shouldn't be. :twisted:
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Post by k-0ne » 29 Jun 2009, 17:19

Hyrican wrote:Bigest cheaters were from SRP and Orlow cuz they never called hits envent from 5 m shots through trees and vegatation..(WTF!! bulletproof vegetation?).
I thought that you only need to take the hits that actually hit you and not some pellets that hit the bushes in between? Strange rules you guys have there...
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gom
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Post by gom » 29 Jun 2009, 17:29

Hyrican wrote:Bigest cheaters were from SRP and Orlow cuz they never called hits envent from 5 m shots through trees and vegatation..(WTF!! bulletproof vegetation?).
Well, I was on Yuri Orlow's side, and I have encountered many times the NATO tactics to spray as much pellets to the bushes as possible. The problem is, that they were very often shooting at least 10m from the closest of us in the woods. I have also eye witnessed our people admitting hits which were blind-shot to the woods, if they really hit them, so I can at least say that it was not a general problem of the whole side - maybe some people did not admit such hits and I did not see them, so I can't refuse it completely, but on the first sight I would tell you are wrong in this - only a stupid would stay in the woods on the same place from which he has been shooting at opponents, especially if it was so notoriously known that NATO players would send at least 2 kilograms of pellets to every such place from which we were shooting at them...

Of course if you have seen anyone who was hit in this way, and who did not admit the hit, then it is a shame, and even if I am not responsible for it, I would like to appologise to you for it.
Last edited by gom on 29 Jun 2009, 17:30, edited 1 time in total.

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