HPA and the future

Feedback and debriefings from Berget 16
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Majk
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by Majk » 04 Jul 2018, 15:13

Arginj wrote:
04 Jul 2018, 09:22


I have heard there’s a ROF limit on Berget. Is this really a thing? If not, it really should be. Having a HPA gun with 50 rps is not fun, regardless if it is on a player or a car.
Its set on 30. But should be 20. This is a real problem, mounted MGs, high rpm, high trim, low control. One of The teathinjuries was a mg driveby on extremely short distance.
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by L4gi » 04 Jul 2018, 15:16

If theres a ROF limit, why isnt there anything in the rules?
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by Majk » 04 Jul 2018, 15:34

L4gi wrote:
04 Jul 2018, 15:16
If theres a ROF limit, why isnt there anything in the rules?
Good question, im pretty sure it was implemented in the physical/paper guide last year after some trouble recent years. Trouble with this rule its hard to check, but should defenetly be in the rules on webbpage. Its something we wont control unless needed but inform during future chroning. Historicly the actual villain in this drama is the mounted HPA MGs were control is lacking in some cases. With the current rulesset of MGs there lies a big responsibility on Gunners. This role is no longer "spray and play".
Last edited by Majk on 04 Jul 2018, 15:54, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by jdoe » 04 Jul 2018, 15:39

It is fairly easy to hear and identify a "crisp" AEG at chronoing, and ask the player to put it on full-auto and let the chrono count the RPS. Your chronos seemed to have that option (?)

So check Cat 1-2 on judgment and all Cat 4s.

Not saying that is easy as snapping your fingers, but just saying, which do you want to put first? Profit or safety?
Last edited by jdoe on 04 Jul 2018, 16:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by Arginj » 04 Jul 2018, 15:55

jdoe wrote:
04 Jul 2018, 14:44
I would guess shooting at the windows is done at the heat of the moment, since if they are open, you can actually score hits on the crew (as per rules) and maybe some people don't realize when the windows are closed or open. Also, shooting at the turret does make sense, since if you get a BB through some hole or opening, that is a hit on the gunner.

Personally I shot at the turrets, and sometimes to the front and rear area of the moving vehicle, if I saw people advancing with them. Didn't shoot at the chassis of the car (at windows) because I really couldn't tell if they were open or not.

We shot at UPIR attacking the village mostly from the inside of our office building and our full-auto guns were all category 2 at the maximum. The range between the road and the office is well over 10m so it was safe to assume we could fire on the road and beyond. We had no HPA guns in our team. And we never opened fire on anyone until our personnel or the building was shot at first.

My XM has a very high ROF, which might confuse some people to think it is HPA. I mostly shot short bursts, but if I saw a lot of people or wanted to suppress someone in the bushes, I let it fly, so to speak, minding the MSD of course.
Your describes situation is a different one to the one I’m referring to. :) We just passed the village without any shooting and then 10+ merc ran out near the toilets and sprayed like crazy on our windows (at least one “HPA” laser beam). I can’t really tell the distance, but within 10 meters is my guess.
Last edited by Arginj on 04 Jul 2018, 15:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by Arginj » 04 Jul 2018, 15:58

Majk wrote:
04 Jul 2018, 15:13
Arginj wrote:
04 Jul 2018, 09:22


I have heard there’s a ROF limit on Berget. Is this really a thing? If not, it really should be. Having a HPA gun with 50 rps is not fun, regardless if it is on a player or a car.
Its set on 30. But should be 20. This is a real problem, mounted MGs, high rpm, high trim, low control. One of The teathinjuries was a mg driveby on extremely short distance.
Last Berget our 3D printed minigun with 6 barrels went through an _extensive_ control and check up to see if too many bullets would hit the target (which makes sense). So why are AEGs and HPAs with insane rof just let through?
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by jdoe » 04 Jul 2018, 16:01

Arginj wrote:
04 Jul 2018, 15:55
jdoe wrote:
04 Jul 2018, 14:44
I would guess shooting at the windows is done at the heat of the moment, since if they are open, you can actually score hits on the crew (as per rules) and maybe some people don't realize when the windows are closed or open. Also, shooting at the turret does make sense, since if you get a BB through some hole or opening, that is a hit on the gunner.

Personally I shot at the turrets, and sometimes to the front and rear area of the moving vehicle, if I saw people advancing with them. Didn't shoot at the chassis of the car (at windows) because I really couldn't tell if they were open or not.

We shot at UPIR attacking the village mostly from the inside of our office building and our full-auto guns were all category 2 at the maximum. The range between the road and the office is well over 10m so it was safe to assume we could fire on the road and beyond. We had no HPA guns in our team. And we never opened fire on anyone until our personnel or the building was shot at first.

My XM has a very high ROF, which might confuse some people to think it is HPA. I mostly shot short bursts, but if I saw a lot of people or wanted to suppress someone in the bushes, I let it fly, so to speak, minding the MSD of course.
Your describes situation is a different one to the one I’m referring to. :) We just passed the village without any shooting and then 10+ merc ran out near the toilets and sprayed like crazy on our windows (at least one “HPA” laser beam). I can’t really tell the distance, but within 10 meters is my guess.
Ok, glad you cleared that out. And if they shot at you on the road near the toilets, that is surely under 10m away :(

We tried to be very careful with our fire, to avoid blue-on-blue and unnecessary damage. We used the small holes in the walls to observe but never to shoot, only shot out with the hatches fully opened.
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by Majk » 04 Jul 2018, 16:04

jdoe wrote:
04 Jul 2018, 15:39
It is fairly easy to hear and identify a "crisp" AEG at chronoing, and ask the player to put in on full-auto and let the chrono count the RPS. Your chronos seemed to have that option (?)

So check Cat 1-2 on judgment and all Cat 4s.

Not saying that is easy as snapping your fingers, but just saying, which do you want to put first? Profit or safety?
Yes our chronos have the funktion, what i meant was we dont have time to check every gun, only MGs and specificly HPA MGs in the future. But this will be a good improvement for next year, thanx for noticing it!
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by jdoe » 04 Jul 2018, 16:11

Majk wrote:
04 Jul 2018, 16:04
jdoe wrote:
04 Jul 2018, 15:39
It is fairly easy to hear and identify a "crisp" AEG at chronoing, and ask the player to put in on full-auto and let the chrono count the RPS. Your chronos seemed to have that option (?)

So check Cat 1-2 on judgment and all Cat 4s.

Not saying that is easy as snapping your fingers, but just saying, which do you want to put first? Profit or safety?
Yes our chronos have the funktion, what i meant was we dont have time to check every gun, only MGs and specificly HPA MGs in the future. But this will be a good improvement for next year, thanx for noticing it!
Excellent. This of course doesn't negate the fact that some people come to chrono with a low-power battery and change it to more powerful for the game, but that is then another matter and someone risking it, might get into trouble for it later on, if checked ingame or after some unfortunate incident.

Same goes to the HPA. Anyone can bring two regs and hoses with bottles and just check-in with the one set less powerful. That is something no-one can rule out but any sane person should realize the trouble they are facing if their gun and kit is checked ingame.
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by Majk » 04 Jul 2018, 16:33

Rules can never prevent certain dishonest individuals from cheating but are there to make it fiddly... Hopefully in a near future the cheaters are in such minority they are easy for us to find. But this is a joint effort bethween players, rules and crew. If you dont report your cheating teammate this will be a long and troublesome journey.
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by jdoe » 04 Jul 2018, 16:50

Majk wrote:
04 Jul 2018, 16:33
Rules can never prevent certain dishonest individuals from cheating but are there to make it fiddly... Hopefully in a near future the cheaters are in such minority they are easy for us to find. But this is a joint effort bethween players, rules and crew. If you dont report your cheating teammate this will be a long and troublesome journey.
...or talk them out of the whole idea of cheating in the first place.

Just say "come on, don't do that".
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by Majk » 05 Jul 2018, 11:36

jdoe wrote:
04 Jul 2018, 16:50
Majk wrote:
04 Jul 2018, 16:33
Rules can never prevent certain dishonest individuals from cheating but are there to make it fiddly... Hopefully in a near future the cheaters are in such minority they are easy for us to find. But this is a joint effort bethween players, rules and crew. If you dont report your cheating teammate this will be a long and troublesome journey.
...or talk them out of the whole idea of cheating in the first place.

Just say "come on, don't do that".
I rather talk about Red team, Blue team, Yellow team... Sure, I certainly hope you educate your friends at everyweek sundaygame before going to berget. What I REALLY hope is that red report other red players and so forth. Yellow players cant see If Blue players load their magazines with glass bullets... Reds cant see If Yellow crank up the pressure on their regulators. If players starting to watch what other freindly teams do everyday on Berget, rather then single out the enemy with very vauge rumorlike information my work would be hundred times easier.
Also, I really do think that generally among players the awareness of velocity is ok. Its simple, keep your distance. The two factors that many players dont think about and is less informed about is bulletweight and ROF, these needs to be adressed better in future rules. Teath injuries for example, dont come from high velocity, they can come from a 82 ms pistol bullet at 15m away if you are unlucky. If you dont wanna send players to the dentist, lower your aim and your ROF. If you dont wanna visit the dentist yourself, cover your teath.

Impact in airsoft is an equation with more factors then just velocity.
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by L4gi » 05 Jul 2018, 12:23

Simplest and easiest way to chrono would be using ingame BB and measuring joules from the end of the barrel. We've been doing that in Finland for a really long time already, and it seems to be quite a well working solution.
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by Majk » 05 Jul 2018, 13:24

L4gi wrote:
05 Jul 2018, 12:23
Simplest and easiest way to chrono would be using ingame BB and measuring joules from the end of the barrel. We've been doing that in Finland for a really long time already, and it seems to be quite a well working solution.
Yes, this has many benefits and I can easily see that metod optimal for smaller events and theres adjustments possible for larger too. The only downside... this would make it easier to cheat, im not sure if i wanna do that, or work around that. The other simple option would be to chrono with a heavy bullet for example 0.3, but then again we have many inaccurate readings (like the current system, but in a better way). The third option would be a more complicated and slower system like VSAF for an example. Its a hard choice when you have to sacrifice something. I want to explore IF we can come up with a system with lesser downsides before we choose among the ones we know.
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by Gapperjack » 05 Jul 2018, 15:28

I must admit, I was surprised how few people I saw wearing enclosed eye protection (i.e. goggles not shooting glasses), or mouth protection.
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