HPA and the future

Feedback and debriefings from Berget 16
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jdoe
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HPA and the future

Post by jdoe » 01 Jul 2018, 19:57

Yet again, we had some very disconcerting experiences with HPAs in Berget. I saw one teeth injury in the village and heard of one other caused by HPA. I also saw a lot of physically strong (considering we should be shooting plastic BBs with limited power) damage to our metal walled office building in the village. We also did a small field test under fire in the office building and it didn't feel right.

HPA has its place in airsoft, and I do feel it should be so. However, I feel the system for regulation as it is, is flawed and lacking. And that contributes to a lot of unneccessary injuries to players. Currently, the system is far from good, it allows too many options for cheating on the regulations.

So, how would you like to see the future of airsoft in HPA?

I would love to see manufacturers come up with regulators that have limited output capacity and event organizers (both Berget and others) to accept only certain regulator models to certain levels of power category.

I understand the reluctancy of BE to ban HPAs from its events. And as far as I can tell, it would be the wrong way to go. HPA is part of this hobby, but we need something to sort out the problems.

EDIT: If BE thinks this post should be someplace else, feel free to move it. I thought it should be in the recent event feedback.
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by Blåbär » 01 Jul 2018, 20:31

Hi

don't really see the problem be a specific HPA issue.

I run a HPA DMR and at berget it was chronod to ~126 m/s and semi locked.
One issue is the Joule creep that can occur with a HPA rig.

HPA (and all guns) should be checked with its playing BBs and not 0.20 or maybe the max allowed weight. 0.30 for AEG and 0.43 for snipers

Most (maybe all) regulators have tournament locks. But BE didn't enforce it. And there for ppl could turn upp the pressure.
But the same problems also occurs with PTW and similar guns where you could change the cylinder or spring.


/N

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Re: HPA and the future

Post by MiqaFox » 01 Jul 2018, 20:45

I agree that this is not a HPA-specific issue. The use of HPA and gas guns just amplify this flaw. The safety rules are very outdated against what we know now (energy creep, etc.). I agree that chronoing with the heaviest weight for the class would be a good idea.

It is also relatively simple to implement as you would only need two weights for check in. It would however still need an update of the minimum engagement distance rules.

No matter how you write the rules though, it is very easy to change the gun after check in. The only way to remove the problem is to to chroning on the fly in the field. If your output differentiates from the marker on your gun that should be enough for a permanent ban IMO.

Still, there will be the problem of people actually following the MEDs that they are assigned.
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by Arradin » 01 Jul 2018, 21:15

There were a few tooth ingurys this year, but none of them were due to hpa Guns. The one in the village was Done with a pistol chroned under 70. Its not always a matter of hard shooting Guns just bad luck.

We also chroned more Guns than ever in the field this year.

In the end, people Who want to cheat Will find a way to cheat, there is only so much that we can do as organizers
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by D0minus » 02 Jul 2018, 00:26

The main problem are the players that utilize heavy bbs (0.40<)made for bolt sniper in a HPA platform that can perform as a full auto rifle when on single fire mode! Restrain the bb weight to all dmr/spr made HPA to maximum of 0.36! PTW as a platform is very picky when it comes to bbs quality therefore of what i have tested 0.30 are the heaviest that can be used without getting rifle issues!
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by Jokk » 02 Jul 2018, 11:38

I was really concerned when they didn't lock regulators at the chronostation (not mine atleast). I went to talk to an other crew (to not hold up the chrono line) and asked if they didn't lock regs this year. He said it sounded wierd and we agreed to lock my reg for safety reasons. I don't want to be in a situation where someone wants to check my kit and see my reg isn't locked.

This is a cut-out from the rules about HPA. "If you have a HPA-gun, you need to bring a Tournament Lock. The lock for pressure (at your tanks regulator) is vital to play at all".

This means the chrono crew who didn't lock regulators didn't follow the rules. I hope berget check this information for next year.

Also, PLEASE chrono with heavier BBs.. As people above me have said, joule creep is a thing.
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by L4gi » 02 Jul 2018, 12:50

The problem is the people handling the chrono have no idea what they are doing, its as simple as that. HPA, AEG, doesnt matter then the guys who are supposed to make sure all guns are according to limits are incompetent. :D
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by Miksu » 02 Jul 2018, 14:44

I heard that this year many players been forced to turn their hop up to absolute zero before chrono which is not how it should be since nobody is not shooting their guns with zero hop up and none of the fields I've played at have forced ppl to set their hop up to zero before chrono. And the guy who chronoed my gun told me to turn up the hop up so the gun will shoot straight so I think that's how it should be but for most of the guys it was the opposite. I also heard that some rifle setups that are set up to shoot heavy bbs cant be turned to zero hop with .20 gram bbs and that was causing problems since they should be chronoed without hop up at all.

I don't see HPA's as a problem but most of them have pretty good tournament locking options these days and I am wondering why BE Crew is not forcing players to use those. Pretty good tournament locking can be succeed with tamper proof sticker that has unique number in it. It will fit over the most regulators and cannot be tampered without notice if checked by Crew member. But if someone wants to cheat they will find a way to do it anyway but by not tournament locking regulators you just made it super easy to everyone cheat.

I also heard that every chrono in chronoing tent was not the same. That can lead to that the results will differ from one chrono station to another. So I hope every chrono in chronoing tent is exactly same make and model next year so it wont leave a change that the results would differ from one to another.
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by Lester » 02 Jul 2018, 15:06

We have a lot to say about HPA guns. We got told it was ok to pass the Merc village and not engage because of the tooth incident you guys talk about.

When we drove by with our cars they fucking shoot with HPA guns our window to small peaces and continued to shoot inside the car while we was trying to get away.

look even the bullet "hole" on the green car.

The answer from Berget Sec was, did you see the players number? like we had time to stop and chat. The bullets was so hard and loud. never experienced something like that while ppl shoot on the car.

Really unhappy with the Merc ppl that continued shooting at us after the window broke....
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by Herr.Nilsson » 02 Jul 2018, 15:35

I was in the green car and I can understand that the mercs were a bit tired of us after the ordered raid earlier the same day. But, the guy with the HPA gun was out for blood, the hits were extremely hard and close, around 15m, and they were aimed at our windscreens. The Green car had not been used in a game before this event and the driver is certain that the dent is from this accident.

I can understand all the good things with HPA setups, heck I'm considering to build one. However, they are quite easy to tamper with and they have extreme potential when it comes to FPS and ROF. In the wrong hands, this can lead the serious dangers, what would have happened if the same gun had hit one of our gunners? The safety glasses would probably not have been enough to stop that gun.

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Re: HPA and the future

Post by surface » 02 Jul 2018, 15:55

I really hope that there would be a change in chronoing guidelines for future bergets, having people chonoing with 0.3 or 0.25 is atleast better than 0.2g because of the joule creep that comes with HPA (and other guns).

Wouldnt it be a good idea to start a seperate topic related to just MED and Chrono ?

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Re: HPA and the future

Post by Blåbär » 02 Jul 2018, 16:24

Jokk wrote:
02 Jul 2018, 11:38
I was really concerned when they didn't lock regulators at the chronostation (not mine atleast). I went to talk to an other crew (to not hold up the chrono line) and asked if they didn't lock regs this year. He said it sounded wierd and we agreed to lock my reg for safety reasons. I don't want to be in a situation where someone wants to check my kit and see my reg isn't locked.

Also, PLEASE chrono with heavier BBs.. As people above me have said, joule creep is a thing.
When I chrono my HPA i asked about the tournament lock. the answer i got back was that they wrote down my pressure & M/S and my booking no.
thats all. got a bit confused also.

when it comes to the choro there was a A-HA experience before I left home I had adjust the gun to ~137 m/s (112m/s with 0.30) and at BE i got ~126m/s with their BBs.... I decided to use 15m because I didn't trust their chrono.

So BE really need to change their chrono rules.

/N

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Re: HPA and the future

Post by Majk » 03 Jul 2018, 10:15

Yes, our current system have flaws, especially towards HPA and joulecreep. We are considering a new system for next year. I wanted to switch this year but we felt a big change like this needs to be done long before game (pref. ticket release) and we wasnt sure it would expose new problems.
The chronocrew was new and any mistakes they did was mine not preparing them enough.

New system need to consider many aspects:
Easy to understand (rookies)
Fast (2k takes time to chrono)
Flexible (chrono in field)
Cover HPA
Consider Joulecreep
Make it hard to cheat

We will consider suggestions, keep em coming.
Last edited by Majk on 03 Jul 2018, 11:59, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: HPA and the future

Post by mouse » 03 Jul 2018, 10:27

VSAF chrono rules is an established system in almost whole of Sweden at this point. Think berget and pandion is the only bigger game not utilizing that ruleset. Consider changing too VSAF.

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Re: HPA and the future

Post by Majk » 03 Jul 2018, 10:38

Yes VSAF rules are verry good. It is on top of my list IF we dont come up with a easier and/or better one.
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