* Feedback - Bashir city *

Feedback e debriefings from Berget 7.
Os
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Post by Os » 29 Jun 2009, 19:47

Tystnad wrote:In my experience, Berget has never been for the "actionminded", but rather those that want the whole package. Bashir was a perfect complement to the already existing functions in the series, and I honestly hope it evolves even more to B8, giving even more room for roleplaying and interaction betweem players, factions and objects.
Milsim and "mission type" is okay for me but if berget focus to much on the role play part they aint going to get so many players.
Last year it was a wery good game at berget 6. I could not even finish my coffe before i had to go out again. this year I was bored.

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Post by motorhead » 29 Jun 2009, 20:14

Seraph wrote:For example the money spent on the toy chopper should instead have been spent on more radios to the squad leaders, so that they could effectively take part of orders given by central command (especially in NATO), and so that they could also contact centcom to resolve issues in the field.
The airsoft chain-of-command concept has its flaws. Basically How-To-Coordinate 500+ people in a 4-day event without dedicated training etc.

1. We were mainly let down by a CH12-repeater placed nice & high in the terrain, but for some peculiar reason the darn thing was run off a petrol-driven generator. Nobody were assigned from BE-crew to refuel that thing ( instead of going for the better option like running it off a 12v car battery ) and nobody bothered to inform us about that until com on CH12 went down repeatedly. UHF is as you know not that good in hilly terrain....

2. Also BE-didn't inform us/or didn't get proper replies from the company they rented the radios from right up until game day 1. So THERE is a vast improvement potensiale for ya. ;-)

3. So basically our com was screwed up by bad equipment. We were among other things not given a proper base station as requested and had to use handhelt Yeasu 4200's as base stations.

These were not good enough due to low Tx-power/basic short antennas and we basically used my private Puxing-888 handhelt with a long antenna paracorded to the HQ window as base station. ( Talk about digging a foxhole with a spoon and you get the frustration level for us at that ops room.... )

We were issued preprogrammed LPD frequency (433mhz band) radios for HQ staff, COY commanders and platoon commanders. Squad com was - as also the case in real mil batallions - based on a different frequency band; the PMR (446mhz) or PRR (2,4ghz) radios.
I'd rather say that available civilian frequencies and info flow between a bunch of untrained and non-cohesive airsoftplayers is the real culprit here.

We simply must question if a role-playing city like Bashir can be "realistically" or "fairly" treated as an ingame factor when an airsoft unit gets at batallion size. The big factor being how to keep the short-sighted, non-roleplaying airsofters happy.

As for the concept of having an ingame, LARP city which requires ROE (Rules Of Engagement) - simply awesome. gave us at the OPS a lot to consider and digest. Very good game factor - but very difficult to handle "realistically" since short-term skirmish mindsets tarnished the NATO game-plan too much. We simply had no idea what was going on until we heard dramatic radio calls from our MP guys about fake NATO units operating in/attacking Bashir without our knowledge.
Seraph wrote:The current lack of communication between centcom and the troops in the field is definitely the reason for many of the screwups, as there is no control of what individual troops do on the battlefield. One of the main problems is that people don't think of what consequences their actions have. This is something that is hard to resolve in an "airsoft combat" style of gameplay, whereas in milsim this can be enforced by looking at what would happen in reality.
Spot on, mate. Couldn't have said it better!
Seraph wrote:For example, rogue NATO forces on CNN and BBC would be breaking news indeed and would have massive consequences on the international political scene. But in airsoft combat it's just a matter of being bored and go out to have some "frags". I truly hope that the Berget Crew realize this and think about how they should proceed in the future in order to improve the quality of Berget events.
Bullseye. Agree totally.
Last edited by motorhead on 29 Jun 2009, 21:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Seraph » 29 Jun 2009, 21:16

Os wrote:Milsim and "mission type" is okay for me but if berget focus to much on the role play part they aint going to get so many players.
Well, as a grunt you wouldn't have to worry about the RP too much as long as you respect the story, conditions and those who try to stay in character. The only ones who need to be expected to RP to some extent (except for obvious RP characters) are those in the command chain and those being in contact with other factions, in other words people with more responsibility. I can't understand why people are so afraid of RP, it's not like you have to play a damn elf or something. A soldier in the real world is likely a guy much like yourself and all you need to do is adapt a mindset you'd expect a soldier to have. For a grunt it isn't that hard. And all you need to do in order to get the action you want is to follow orders.



motörhead wrote:We simply must question if a role-playing city like Bashir can be "realistically" or "fairly" treated as an ingame factor when an airsoft unit gets at batallion size. The big factor being how to keep the short-sighted, non-roleplaying airsofters happy.
I don't see the problem. The game area is much more than just Bashir. It is like I said to numerous people; I couldn't care less if you molested your enemies 50 m outside the city, but within the city borders we will not tolerate aggression! But somehow many saw Bashir as the place where all battles should take place. At one time it was even bombarded with mortar fire. I mean, seriously. The least hostile place on the entire game area bombarded by mortar fire. Someone needs to be educated. Non-roleplaying airsofters have loads of terrain on which to shower plastic at each other.

motörhead wrote:As for the concept of having an ingame, LARP city which requires ROE (Rules Of Engagement) - simply awesome. gave us at the OPS a lot to consider and digest. Very good game factor - but very difficult to handle "realistically" since short-term skirmish mindsets tarnished the NATO game-plan too much. We simply had no idea what was going on until we heard dramatic radio calls from our MP guys about fake NATO units operating in/attacking Bashir without our knowledge.
Well, I told you so over the phone long before your MPs radioed in. They contacted you over the radio right after I physically stopped their vehicles from entering Bashir and subsequently be eliminated. Three of them were escorted by us up to the embassy (nearly being shot on the way) and in the end it benefitted the story since they got the opportunity to interrogate the rogue NATO prisoners. I'm not sure what happened afterwards though since we had to go offgame at that point but I heard that the MPs were shot down by rogue NATO and the Mayor was declared a war criminal. FOR WHAT REASON?? I'd very much like to know who made those decisions, because it is - to be honest - nothing short of hilarious. Insane even. Oh, and then the city was nuked. I'm actually glad I wasn't there when these events took place because I think that whoever thought up these things should be fitted with a straitjacket.

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Post by motorhead » 29 Jun 2009, 21:57

The simple answer is that this game went overboard when rogue airsofters from ingame NATO started ignoring the game rules, chain-of-command and just stormed un-coordinated into Bashir - disregarding that that place was to be kept safe. It was a direct case of mutiny-like insubordination and a violation of the concept of protecting the civilians..

The fact that so many disregarded their units inside NATO and started their own "units" on the radio net also went overboard. Stupidity ruled.

Basically this ruined the gameplay for many NATO-players who respected the storyline and the NATO mandate. I have certain doubts about taking any central role in future Berget events due to all this and some other factors. Berget is a monster of an airsoft-event.

And there's a limit to how much fuckups one can witness.
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Post by Roska » 29 Jun 2009, 22:06

Os wrote:Last year it was a wery good game at berget 6. I could not even finish my coffe before i had to go out again. this year I was bored.
This just proves the fact, that you can't always keep everyone happy.

Last year I participated in two fights during the whole game. Rest of the time I sat on my ass doing guarding. Was I bored? No, but I could have used some more combat.

This year I saw a bit too much combat, but also guarding. I liked this game better than the two previous games.

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Post by M.Anthopoulos » 29 Jun 2009, 22:16

In my point of view, Bashir city was nicely built and I liked the athmosphere after the game, when we were having good time with each other in Beerparty :)

Unfortunately our squad didnt go to Bashir city before saturdaymorning, so I didnt experience Larping there. (It would have been very nice to spend all BE Dollars on the Casino, but I got used to it that we didnt visit BC earlier than Saturday).

Maybe next year I could get some LARP, If there is other city to visit (Bashir City was destroyed by a Nuclear Bomb, so I find it difficult to visit a town which is full of radioactive :D )
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Post by FallenGuard » 29 Jun 2009, 23:03

motörhead wrote: Basically this ruined the gameplay for many NATO-players who respected the storyline and the NATO mandate.
I have to agree with what you said. I can have "See Guy, Shoot Guy" Killfests at home too. To Berget I come to experience more than that.

Besides that, I was only a short time in Bashir, and at that time it was very quiet. It was very well done tough, so this guy comes up and tells me "you should have seen the car wash", I thought it was a good joke until I read otherwise on these forums today. :D

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Post by Panzergraf » 29 Jun 2009, 23:32

M.Anthopoulos wrote:(Bashir City was destroyed by a Nuclear Bomb, so I find it difficult to visit a town which is full of radioactive :D )
Hmm, S.T.A.L.K.E.R scenario?

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Post by Ripster » 30 Jun 2009, 00:34

Before going to B7 my hopes were that LARP would be inside bashir and "Kill em all" outside. unfortunatley this wasn't to be. I was robbed by nato twise, the guys who were sopposed to be protecting me. In the end I was protected by the guys who was (according to rumors) going to kill me and everyone in bashir :P

I loved the LARP inside the city and most of all, all the freaking knock-outs :P and that ppl acually respected it, during saturday I think there was about 4 knock outs in the casino within 2 minutes, and everybody played with I ( and I made money on it without lifting a finger :D)

I really hope that A city like Bashir will be part of B8 next year and please let's have a goddam election without nukes !!! ;)

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Post by Glim » 30 Jun 2009, 01:04

I loved Bashir City! <3

When we first drove up the road to BC, I saw something white sticking up above the trees. Seconds later I realised it was the churchtower, and I was amazed by the building! At first sight the rest of town seemed a bit small, but after a few more glances I came to feel at home with it. There was everything you need: a bar, a casino, a police station, a church, the mayor's office and a few more buildings.
Only thing I acctually missed was a small building we could've had as our own, but staying in the church and working by the fireplace and in the bar worked out fine aswell.

I didn't like that there were so many firefights held in BC though. I thought (like so many more civilians) that BC would be a cease-fire zone, and that there would be no risk of being shot inside the city borders. Unfortunatly, this wasn't the case. Two of my friends got shot in the church, eventhough people were yelling "Don't shot, civilian girls inside!". I've come to understand that the shooters where acting on their own behalf, but right there and then I was really pissed off.

For next year, I'd love to see a place like Bashir again. It was (or at least should have been) a neutral place for all players, no matter what color on their armbands, where they could meet and spend some B$. Hopefully we can get more civilian LARPers to get the place really alive next year, but then it -has- to be a cease-fire zone in order not to hurt anyone.

My overall opinion about Bashir City was that it was cosy, and I liked it there. :)
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Post by looky » 30 Jun 2009, 01:39

Bashir City was great i really liked it.

It was a change from all the forest terrain. i hope there will be a similar city on B8, hopefully an even bigger one. i don't think it should be a no fireing zone except in an in-game term getting a BB on you isn't so bad (except when some retard fires it withing safety distance and without watching where the hits land (libanon rensning!!!)). maybe getting the NATO to do there job in protecting the civilians by having passive force stationed in town to see that the civilians aren't harassed or attacked, but also doesn't attack other fractions unless fired upon. A bit like peace keeping forces.
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Post by Tiger_1 » 30 Jun 2009, 09:05

Just to comment on a few things. I never got to see Bashir ingame, but I was impressed when I saw it at the beerparty. I hope the people that got to have fun there enjoyed.

As for comms. (not sure why it is in this tread, but but). The way riflemen get info is to ask their squad leader, if he does not know he askes his platoon commander, and he goes on up the chain until the info is rescived, and past down. You can not have 450 NATO soldiers on the bat radio net, just becouse you all seem to think you need to know EVERY thing bat command says or thinks.
That said, info down the chain of command is important, and a good commanders let's his men know why they are doing things. But you can not sit back and expect to recive the whole NATO battleplan. If you want to know something, ask your commander!

To berget crew, great job on bashir
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Post by Brujo » 30 Jun 2009, 09:21

I agree with looky that Bashir should not be a safezone.

I don't think however that it should be left to players or commanders to decide who to shoot and who not to. It should be regulated in the rules...

Complicated relations situations are best solved by an enhanced RoE, and that needs every player to read the rules. I would say close to 50% of Berget players never read through the rules. I kindoff liked the questionaire about rules during B6 signup, it forced people to read the rules.
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Post by Hammer » 30 Jun 2009, 09:28

Glim wrote:Hopefully we can get more civilian LARPers to get the place really alive next year, but then it -has- to be a cease-fire zone in order not to hurt anyone.
I would sort of agree; an in-game enforced cease-fire zone is good. Neutral ground.
But the risk of getting into a firefight (with local thugs, the police or attacks against the city) should still be there. There would be a whole lot less tension in the city if non one where able to fire. Sort of like a Safe Zone.
If LARPers feel the need to go out of character and hide in case of a firefight an OFF-game building inside the city should suffice.
Myself and the growing group of LARP/Airsoft-players that enjoy both worlds would probably not go and hide, but instead hope that players respect safety rules, don't shoot unarmed civilians and identify their targets before pulling the trigger.

Of course that would not always be the case, but in the unfortunate incident where two civilians (girls or guys doesnt matter to me) were shot is an in-game breach of the NATO Rules of Engagement (Firing at unarmed civilians inside a church would probably call for severe repercussions for the war criminal), and by the look of the wounds I would assume an off-game breach of safety distances.
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Post by Crapgame » 30 Jun 2009, 09:55

since there were so many kinds of civilian players i think there might have been confusion on who might be a hostile civilian in BC and thus some players, stupid enough, starts shooting at everyone just to be shure.

maybe to next year the civilians who will not at all kill and use weapons might get domething moore on their armband, like the girls, they where not hostile at all and i guess some things could have been avoided with an extra marking.

i personally loved BC with its buildnings but it was very unprotected against people coming over himmelsberget.. the police should have been moore and they should have had some kind of patrols in the outer city perimiter.
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