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Posted: 01 Jul 2009, 23:13
by Os
Tiger_1 wrote:I agree with Os's last point. If it had been a enemy base there, it would not have been such a big problem. But the only thing that proves, is that not only do people like that not read/care about the game, they are lazy as well....

I know the comment above was provoking. And I am really done with the whole discusion. Both "sides" have made som good points, and I am sure Berget events have enought to make some changes next year.

As for the comment that Os quoted from the rules that "berget is not a milsim event" I am sure that is put there for one reason, and one reason only. If they say it is, they will not get 1300 people paying for it!
NATO at least IS a milsim faction. And as others have pointed out, perhaps it would be wise to ad a "milsim level" to each faction next time. Even if the guys who "need to try my new guchi gear" will still be there, at least they have been warned.

Also, any form of punishment will not work. All you need is people that can look at them self in the mirror and say "this is what I am!".
Wery well said :D

Posted: 02 Jul 2009, 01:30
by motorhead
Tiger_1 wrote: Also, any form of punishment will not work. All you need is people that can look at them self in the mirror and say "this is what I am!".
Sounds cool - but when mandate-bound ingame unit coherence breaks up in such a grande scale as this year - the whole storyline and game atmoshpere vaporizes the game into a primitive, basic airsoft shootout without finesse and depth. "See man - shoot man. Ugh."-style.
- Involving 1500 more or less roleplaying airsofters, of which several don't remain within their game characters, disregarding game flow and ingame player mandates.

Then we're talking more of an airsoft pileup than a structured gameplay.

So lessons learned:

- We can't keep all 500+ players happy in an airsoft batallion size unit.

- We need to improve information flow and specify the players mandates better than B7 within such a large airsoft unit.

- Leadership turnover and ingame unit infrastructure are key factors.

- Rougue ingame NATO players went awol and raided Bashir - because they were bored. NATO mandate compromised and game control from the organizers and NATO HQ was impaired.

- Then what hereafter in future Berget games?
I think Bashir caught many players by surprise and off guard when considering what interesting rp and activity went on there.

- These ingame clustered roleplay factors must be balanced better against the respective players airsoft styles and prefs.

- Bashir attracted undesired ingame firepower from other playground areas - leaving them less interesting and less active.

- This made people bored and ingame NATO became unable to keep its players at preferred activity levels.

- Bored airsofters tend to stray off and do their own stuff.

This is certainly not the end story for Berget 8 - which may have radiation-born zombies after Bashir was nuked. :D

Posted: 02 Jul 2009, 05:05
by Beckett
motörhead wrote: You still don't get it, do you? Teaspoon mode:That was not your task or NATO objective at that point in the game. You actually fuelled an ingame conflict and took the initiative and control from your chain-of-command. You and some others from ingame NATO ranks failed miserably to play your ingame characters the way they should.

If your head as a NATO player had been switched on within the game character you were supposed to play you would simply observe and report what the other NATO players had done wrong to us at HQ. Instead you destabilized the situation further and took the initiative and control away from your own HQ and sabotaged the ingame NATO mandate.

At HQ we got angry calls on the radio and had to respond to BE-crew about what happened. The game was at that point (friday at 23:40) spiralling out of control for both us and Berget Events.

That's not the way this game should be played. It's not about winning or loosing - it's about balancing the ingame fractions so the game works within the planned parameters.
Have read your post 5 times in a row. I know your point of view. Don't blame it. Just don't blame everything on me, since I am the only one who told his intentions in game prior making it, and correct me if I'm wrong, posted them on forums after I have returned home. Also I have resigned as an NATO officer (for reasons already explained) and I think HQ did not do several things, that should be done, weather this is an airsoft event or a team building trip:
1. Weather or not you put all rules of engagement, safety rules, policies, etc. YOU HAVE TO COMMUNICATE THEM AGAIN BEFORE THE OFFICIAL GAME STARTS - to remind people what are they doing here. You all have failed that.
2. Basic personal safety airsoft rules were not taking care of by players. I HAD TO REMIND SOME COYS (not only players) TO PUT ON THEIR GOOGLES IN GAME TIME SEVERAL TIMES. I think this is a real problem.
3. I never thought situation was stabile or stabilized. That's why NATO is here. The only NATO POLICY me and my squad were ROLEPLAYing was first 2 hrs on wednesday - the beginning of the game. We contacted ORC fraction on CP1 (our mission was to recon CP1) - we got fired upon, 2 wounded. Did not fire back. Got a friendly hand and appology for the itchy fingers from ORC commander and help in escort to Spectaberget to get clear radio transmission with base. Then we were asked to leave, or get shot at, since they got their new orders from their HQ. We backtracked. This was LARP with diplomacy. From that point on I heard NATO only IN ATTACKING MODE, no diplomacy.
4. POOR RADIO EQUIPMENT. 80 % of the time we did not have contact with base and more than 60 % with no other friendly unit. I know this is organizers problem. Still I am posting it.
THANKS to POLISH TEAM, especialy SMOKE, WHO RELAYED THE MESSAGES TO ALL UNITS AND HQ on last day. You are the greatest.

6. To show you also the "GOOD" side of my ingame and off game "character" that you might have overlooked, these point:
Started a help mission for an ORC injured player. Pulled all of my squad off game to made it quicker and more efficient. Bravo company provided the lift (I suppose).
2nd day when we have been reconing ORC base we hitched a car from Israelis going back to base. There was not enough room. Me and Terenec decided to walk to base. All others transporteded. They all deserved it. Thanks the driver for pickup and for returning to SZ for our pick up.. but we did not wait - wanted to get some sleep :)
I have communicated to HQ what was on my mind and got NO DIRECT talk from "supperiors", only mission - that should "satisfy" my needs.
I personaly did not ask for anything - I WAS ASKING AS A COY FOR MY GUYS. I WAS COMMUNICATING THEIR WISHES!! TO A FRIEND TO FRIEND BASES - NOT MILITARY CHAIN OF COMMAND - YOU CAN STICK THIS HARD UP YOUR A** IN GAME MILSIM OR IN REAL LIFE, CONSIDERING ME (if somethings does not feel right or work for me, I wont do it - ain't jumpin of a bridge just because I was ordered so. And when I felt and saw that that is not goin to be delivered - I returned my radio - and you know the rest.
7. For a guy that has been a radio shack for the entire game time, you put out a lot of accusations. If I did destabilize the entire Berget game - 1 player - and I was not telling guys to go rouge or do crazy stuff - I was speaking my mind out to some players and told them we still need the confirmation from HQ and GMs + for my last "attrosity" - I have only told that to my squad and telling them to decide for them selves and be responsible for that desicion!

8. Nothing ever goes as planned. NOTHING. EVER. It's called LIFE. EXPERIENCE.

9. again: Its a GAME!

10. I like airsoft for its comradeship, enjoyment, being in nature, give my best - always. I don't play it to win. I play it for FUN. To meet new people. Share ideas. Laughs. Experience.

I always label all my incidents good. And I learn from them. I kindly invite all reading this post to do the same. It changed my life for the better. Might yours.

One personal question:
Why did you join the event? And why you wanted to play the role as commanding officer in HQ?

Now I am done for good with explanations.
Hope to see you next year. I have no hard feelings and respect your oppinion. I just don't like narrow mindisms.

Posted: 02 Jul 2009, 07:32
by Brujo
gaaah, too long to read :shock:
I'll go read another topic...

Posted: 02 Jul 2009, 10:48
by motorhead
Beckett, you just proved one thing:
- certain airsofters will never understand the point of unit coherence and ingame mandates.

Basically, your and other airsofter's "we do our own stuff"-reasoning does not fit airsoft games trying to replicate certain simulated units and mission types.

The only good thing about your reasoning here afterwards goes to prove that you and some other B7 NATO players have absolutely no idea how to behave within a milsim unit like ingame NATO should work.

Swarming Bashir without unit orders simply toppled the game storyline and blew the game for many folks respecting the storyline and game plan.

You're not the only one having blown it this year. At least you deserve kudos for honesty. It's just that you don't seem to understand that the game dynamics were spinning totally out of control that Friday evening.
Berget was at that point disintegrating into a blown-up weekend skirm.

My motivation for attending Berget was to get something more sophisticated and well-structured than an ordinary BB-fest and speedball game. I still had fun until that friday evening when everything went haywire and game structure basically blew up into a fragfest in Bashir.

As a total - I still think B7 rocked. And doing that OPS-room job was a blast - despite poor radio equipment.

And I will still take part next year in some role. But I have serious doubts if Berget infrastructure can handle 2000 airsoft players. The only way that can function is to have batallion-size units operate as milsim elements.

I'm done with this subject now. Time to move on.

Posted: 02 Jul 2009, 11:00
by wormbyte
I think everything that is going to be said has been said.

The one clear observation is that Beckett was not the only person in NATO to compromise that operation on the Friday night but he is the only person in NATO to stand up and have the balls to admit it.

Not defending his actions, but I am admiring the honesty.

I am done with this topic.

Posted: 02 Jul 2009, 11:06
by Roska
Motörhead: Perhaps you should join SRP next year, we have always had very functional units, especially on the finnish company (and this year the foreigners of Dog company were awesome too :) ).

Posted: 02 Jul 2009, 11:15
by motorhead
Roska wrote:Motörhead: Perhaps you should join SRP next year, we have always had very functional units, especially on the finnish company (and this year the foreigners of Dog company were awesome too :) ).
An olive drab uniform is certainly a good airsoft asset for such roleplay. And SRP has been a good example at B6 and B7.

I'll most certainly think about it, but my Finnish is non-existant. :D

Posted: 02 Jul 2009, 11:59
by Beckett
Well this was more of a personal highlight to motorhead :D
No hard feelings, I respect and understand your and wormbytes point of view!

I will debrief our squad actions day by day ASAP. :arrow:

Posted: 02 Jul 2009, 23:32
by Roska
motörhead wrote:I'll most certainly think about it, but my Finnish is non-existant. :D
We do have international company too, built around mostly swedish players, but I think we had some polish players etc. this year and they played very well together with us :) You'd be more than welcome there.

Posted: 02 Jul 2009, 23:34
by Panzergraf
Sorry, but you can't have him.
He belongs with us - in NATO :)

Posted: 02 Jul 2009, 23:38
by Roska
You could join us too. ;)

Posted: 03 Jul 2009, 00:19
by Panzergraf
But then I can't wear my gucci german kit :o

Posted: 03 Jul 2009, 00:30
by motorhead
Roska wrote:
motörhead wrote:I'll most certainly think about it, but my Finnish is non-existant. :D
We do have international company too, built around mostly swedish players, but I think we had some polish players etc. this year and they played very well together with us :) You'd be more than welcome there.
For the records; I'm right now in the process of building an Olive Drab kit to extend my roleplay possibilities in airsoft games. And I'm not alone about considering joining SRP next year.

I don't really care about gucci kits. What counts is pure functionality. I want real teamwork between people with the same basic game understanding and the discipline required to play good airsoft roles in functional airsoft units.

There are many factors to fall in place, so I prefer to join a few Swedish or Finnish games before I decide for next year's Berget. Trying different roles can be healthy for any airsoft player - but that is off-topic in this thread. :D

Posted: 03 Jul 2009, 01:49
by Andy McClane
I am a first time Berget visitor - I expected a lot, got different things in the end, I am happy, but with a twist.

Only now I hear about all these stories. The LARPing was a lot more extensive than I ever thought while playing. And next to nothing went as I expected. I felt part of a large group of airsofters - not part of a large group of the same force, actually fighting for a common goal.

Our squadleader was focussed on discipline, so we tried to do whatever necessary to be like real solderies: reacting to base attacks even while not on QRF, be the first to start building base defense on the day before the game, be the first to build base defense on the other side of the camp, no shooting in the camp, be ready in time, don't do anything out in the field a NATO soldier would never be allowed to do, and so on. But we always felt most others were having a totally different mindset.

Since I was not a squad-, platoon- or company commander of any kind we hardly ever heard anything that could complete the full picture, until the second day when the deputy NATO commander (his name was Morgan I think?) called us all together (Oscar Coy) and explained a lot. Finally we knew what we were fighting for, why we were holding ground, and why missions without any action were important as well. But that was the only moment in the whole game we really felt to be part of something big.

I expected everybody would be called upon to build base defenses before the game.
I expected our NATO commander would give some sort of motivational speech just before the start of the game.
I expected the players to be somehow 'updated' about the status of the game, the missions, basically how we were doing, being reminded what we were doing there, and why.

Instead, several times we arrived back in the base after several hours of missions and there was no base defense at all. I could walk straight into the NATO HQ building as well, no problem. It all just didn't 'feel' like how NATO should have operated.

Again, my squadleader (we were with a group of 10) did a great job setting up ROE for us and keeping us to them, and we ourselves did our best to be an as good as possible part of the event, but it never felt like we were 500 guys with the same focus.