Action vs LARP?

Feedback e debriefings from Berget 7.

Action vs LARP

Poll ended at 22 Jul 2009, 23:31

MilSim!
36
26%
Action, less LARP
20
15%
Action and LARP (Berget 7)
51
37%
More LARP
30
22%
 
Total votes: 137

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Action vs LARP?

Post by Majk » 08 Jul 2009, 23:31

Ideally I want more of both and them to interact better. Is this possible?
Do you want more or less of either?

What is your description of milsim?
What is your descripion of LARP?

My views:
Milsim - Less roleplaying, less action and more towards re-creation of real military behaviour and execution.
Action - Lead the game towards more intense battles and skirmishes with elements of milsim.
LARP - Live role-playing. To shape/create a identity to your in-game person and to interact with others as that person.

Discuss!
Last edited by Majk on 09 Jul 2009, 01:27, edited 7 times in total.
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Post by Majk » 08 Jul 2009, 23:56

motörhead wrote:
Hmm. In reality a civilian LARP element like Bashir contributes to making Berget more advanced and multi-level as a game concept. However, this year also proved that faction rules and their ingame mandates affect player satisfaction.

The average airsofter may or may not have some military experience and knowledge, but let's face it; most of us kit up with multiple AEG's, combat vests and different uniforms when we pack our luggage for Berget.

Now we must also prepare for another dimension - LARP and crossover roleplay. That element obiously caught many ingame NATO folks by surprise this year.

The LARP-capable airsofter may hereafter don his/her shorts, hawaii shirt and Ray-Ban's and flash his/her toothpaste grin and enjoy ingame roleplay in the game city. With this knowledge we can prepare better for next time - if Berget also contains an ingame rp city next year.

But let's face it: We must never forget that ingame diplomacy and civilian intrigue must perform within a short 4-day timespan. Infiltration games and valuable intel trading adds an interesting dimension, but this must also be balanced aginst the average airsofter's craving for more classical BB'related airsoft activities. This balance was proven very difficult at B7 and Friday night the game was completely out of control.

Not exactly the way this game was set up and ingame NATO roleplay was impaired/destroyed by rogue elements backstabbing their own unit. Such incidents must be handled better via more precise faction recruitment, more precise faction mandates and better player information next time. Otherwise this years mass-psychology mechanisms may repeat and the game derail again as B7 friday night proved.

If LARP-style-backstabbing-treason is becoming "the Berget storyline" - then goodbye Berget from me and many others. Then I'd rather seek other airsoft games abroad. I'm far from alone on thinking so after this year here in Norway. Yes, it's just a game - but portraying the most cynical and destructive sides of humankind is not my piece of cake and not why I play airsoft. I want unit cameraderie, good com, tactics and functional milsim unit gameplay. Your mileage may vary.

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MrMedic wrote:
I think Motörhead is right.

There are a lot of LARP games around, but there is only one Berget. Berget is an airsoft game with elements of roleplaying, not the other way around.
Lets not turn Berget into a free for all backstabbing competition.

I for one would really have liked to see more full taskforce combat manouvres, such as all of NATO attacking all of Mercs + Milos + whoever wants to join in.

There are very few opportunities in life to partake in a 1000+ airsoft player shootout. With ingame tanks. And then even the helicopter would have been enjoyable.

If this means having BE crew go in and steer things to get such a fight set up then so be it. Bigger and better airsoft at the cost of freedom of choice in roleplaying? Yes thank you. Any day. Most of the people at Berget are "just grunts", they follow orders and trust those orders to give them the most fun possible.

So how to ensure that the orders do just that? Roleplaying is one way, but is the roleplaying really 100% focused on "will this give everyone a better game experience"? I doubt it. Orders from berget crew are. The missions we got from BE this year were varied, challenging and fun. I would much rather see more of that than have a 100% dynamic storyline.

Let there be "Orders from European Nato HQ" specifying the time and place of the assault and "Confirmed intel from hitherto unknown moles within NATO" that leaks the information to all the other HQ's.

Do this two or three times during the event and then let everyone get on with their skulking about doing small missions in between.

I'm not saying that we should cut out the roleplaying entirelly, but focus should still be on maximum amount of excitement and fun for the largest possible number of players.

I (and many others with me) want BIG FIGHTS! And games that do not get cut off several hours too early.

Just my two öre.
Tystnad wrote:
Please note that its Berget, not an airsoftgame. Berget has gone way beyond being "airsoft", and now incorporates bits of everything; large scale skirmish, LARP for some/most factions and players, MilSim for the hardcores and a hugeass get-together for likeminded people from all over the world. Thats my two cents.

I cant really think of anything negative about the game at this stage. The one thing I'd really want BE to consider, is to not make the game bigger. 1300 people is well enough for the stage as it is, expanding that number to above 2000 will only ruin the current setup. Wait for it to grow a little more on its own, like it has done from B5 to the current thing. Things are getting better every year, so I know you guys listen what we, the players, have to say. Good job all over, if you ask me.
Hammer wrote:
I really liked Bashir City, it had good LARPers and a good addition to the game which gave the game another dimension.

I have to agree with D-Cycle and Kane in many of the things they've said.

What I would like to see for next year:
More civilian roles. If need be; outsource the task of creating a mini-LARP for all civilian roles in the game to experienced Live Role Play organizers, allow them to create agendas, intrigues and such for the civilians while war is going on and sometimes effecting the civlians as well, but certainly not always.

Less Dead-rag heads standing around in the city. They should be a) lieing on the ground, b) walking to respawn or c) be respawning.

Make cities into LARP-areas where you are expected to play a role, speak in-character and those not wanting to take part can stay outside the city limits. This of course means that no one should be forced or need to enter the city which does not want to.

In-character workers, bar staff, bar maids and preferably discreetly marked Game Masters that only enter the town to deploy Thunder Kings and before major assaults. Neon colors takes away the role play mood.
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Post by elanaiba » 09 Jul 2009, 00:16

Can you translate exactly what you mean by
a) milsim
b) LARP

Since my vision of them allows them to co-exist. Keep in mind that LARP should mean Playing a certain role - peacekeeper, etc. It shouldn't mean roleplaying whatever I feel like at this moment.
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Post by Majk » 09 Jul 2009, 00:19

UPDATED: Translations of how I think about milsim, action & LARP.

Clarification: I have a hard time to see Berget-games diverge from being a international airsoft event and turn to a military exercise or a Lajv (LARP event). This poll and discussion is to examine if our participators want more from any element.
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Post by Seraph » 09 Jul 2009, 03:30

I say what I said in another thread:

Milsim and RP are often the same. In milsim you assume the character of a soldier or other individual that you might not be in real life. You need to act and think accordingly, hence you roleplay that character. All the other aspects of making a game realistic also involve RP. So, RP is most definitely a part of Milsim and shouldn't really be separated from it. However, the extent that you have to RP in milsim depends on what position you have. As a grunt, the RP doesn't really have to go further than obeying orders and not do things that a real soldier wouldn't do. As a commander the level might be higher as he/she is going to be more prominent. To sum things up, RP is about acting something you're not. Seeing that most people aren't the soldiers they pretend to be they are effectively roleplaying even if they do not claim to do so. I think it's not wise to separate two elements that are in fact the same.

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What is MILSIM

Post by Bulow » 09 Jul 2009, 09:38

As Im organiser of International MILSIMs for some years I would state my definition about the MILSIM bellow:

About Berget:
I dont think Berget is an MILSIM event berget is beatiful as a huge airsoft game. I dont thhink wearing camo in the forrest with bb gun is always MILSIM.

For reference:

Check on youtube. Abchazia 1993 MILSIM and Borderwar MILSIM both hold in Mïlovice Czech Republic.

LARP segments vere always used on Abchazia 110 LARPERS on Border war 150 players. LARP is completely different discipline than MILSIM thou.
But about it later.

My definition of MILSIM is bellow.

Let me please briefly explain what we understand by the word MILSIM in general.

MILSIM (MILITARY SIMULATION) is a specific type of airsoft that requires certain unique skills in order to be performed corretly. Such a skills are required in order to receive all the pleasure from a MILSIM game that is possible.

Required skills:

Strong discipline of the players - without strong discipline and task oriented teams the MILSIM wouldnt be possible.

Advanced survival skills - players shall be capable to carry all the equiment on their back and to survive 36 hours away from the car.

Expert navigation skills - you shall be definately best friend with he compass and azimuth:)

Advanced knowledge of military tactics and procedures - what kind of MILSIM without these skills it would be:) right?

Advanced level of Reenacting
In Czech republic teams performing MILSIM are partly or advanced reenactors or at least teams who try to copy with equipment some specific existing unit.

MILSIM and airsoft shooting.
MILSIM games are not designed to shoot many pellets and to make many frags that is a common thing in for the typical airsoft. MILSIM requires advanced marksman skill. Ussage of High caps is forbidden and limited ammo rules are used very often

MILSIM and respawn.
Long respawn is a spice of the MILSIM - basicaly for a mistake you must pay, so it is quite common to have 2,4,6 hours or no respawn on the MILSIM games. As we respect the affort of international players to come to Czech Republic. For international games the respawn is set for 2 hours ussualy.

Why 120 minutes respawn?
As the MILSIM game start it will not stop untill the game over so 2 hours of respawn despite of a "punishment for being dead" is also good to have some rest. 36 hours non stop game is not possible to be preformed without resting and proper food and water usage discipline.

Scenario:
MILSIM has controled and pre planed scenario that ussualy puts the organiser team out of action. All missions are pre-planed and set for the performing players - so they can get from it as much as possible. Organzers are looking after all the scenario progress during the game and as it is a "living organism" they adjust it as is necessary in order to achive the planned goal as is set before the game.

So lets make a small test:

1.) Are you a person interested more in a number of people you will shoot or you are more interested in success of the mission?
2.) Can you handle a game scenario where you might not fire a single bullet for some longer period of time say 4 hours?
3.) Can you survive 36 hours in wilderness in a temperatures aroun 0 Celsius? Or at least you have balls and equipment to try it?
4.) Will rain put you out of combat?
5.) GPS knows everything - compass is for kids...right?

So...
For a MILSIMEr answers shall be following:
1.) MISSION is why Im there in the field...
2.) SURE depending on the mission it is clear that Im not here to play Counter Strike and Unreal Tournament frag hunt...
3.) YEP - been there done it... weather is not sometimes on our side but I will not give up
4.) Rain is sometimes hard to manage but I have skill, balls and equip to handle it.
5.) GPS is for kids compass and azimuth works always. (Exept the magnetic mountain)

So if you answered similar way you have the right MILSIM blood type, if you are unsure of the answers but you have morale to try it out that is the right approach.

Please if you would like to discuss this MILSIM definition dont hessitate to do so in this post.
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Re: What is MILSIM

Post by mcuz » 09 Jul 2009, 10:14

Bulow wrote: Advanced survival skills - players shall be capable to carry all the equiment on their back and to survive 36 hours away from the car.
That would depend on game type. Would be true if acting as for example a SAS unit on a recon mission or similar. But but hardly all modern units are humping around with bergens. Would be just as much MILSIM acting as ODA/CAG/DEVGRU teams in pickups/HMMWV's a-stan style. Or basic base defense.

For me it's odd that MILSIM is associated with packing allot of weight.

And the part where you should only be allowed to have 30 rounds in a mz (know you didn't say that and I hate hi-caps) is just wrong, if our blazters fired something more accurate than a BB then maybe.
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Post by Mishka_U » 09 Jul 2009, 10:44

I agree that Pole-playing and Milsim cannot be easily separated. Milsim is but one kind of role-playing. Berget role-playing is different - it involves civilian roles, politics, temporary alliances and of course military structure within the factions. I vote to keep it as it is - after all, it is a unique game, so everyone will know what to expect of the next Berget event.
I wouldn't travel that far to see another milsim event - we have plenty of them in Russia, and in most cases they limit one's part in the game to obeying the orders. A game like B7 offers much more opportunities to players (thanks to BE crew), and it is commanders' job to push their soldiers to interesting action or at least not to hinder them when they want to find action for themselves, but to set certain limits within which the players are free to act.

As for my personal likings, I prefer games with interesting plots and clearly defined strategic goals (and, if possible, many alternate ways to achieve them). I would like to have the map, the initial settings, goals for my faction, and goals for other factions published well in advance for everyone who cares to read, so that each side of the conflict could do much strategic planning before the game. Special missions giving additional bonuses are not published, but given out by the crew during the game. Faction HQs would have busy time receiving situation updates from their soldiers and from the crew during the game, analyzing information and making decisions. This would lead to permanent movement of troops and much action. Actually, this is what we usually have at large games in Russia. But we also have games where the plot is published as an outline, with several factions whose goals are not very clear. At such games, faction commanders cannot claim control of the situation, and the crew has to do its best to make the event enjoyable, which is difficult even when the number of players is between 100 and 250, and is much more difficult when the numbers are as great as at Berget. So, my second point is: let us have a clearer plot well in advance.
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Post by Crapgame » 09 Jul 2009, 12:18

I took the option of action and larp (berget 7) beacuse i dont think berget as a big game can become a mil-sim, but i am confident that BE can create smaller Mil-Sim based games. I took that option beacuse i enjoy both elements of gaming and roleplaying to make the game moore interesting and get it away from just having a big skirmish.

Mil-Sim to me is a challange, i dont know how many will attend the game, i dont know if i have allies or enemys. i get a misson e-mail a few days before the game with a location to be at a specific time to start the game. then i might have 36 hours to complete my missions i the means i find in advantage to my role. yes this might mean i have to roleplay some and it does not bother me.

LARP if it is a pure LARP game the focus is on the roleplaying and storytelling. I have been on pure LARPs and on LARP with airsoft weapons but where the focus is on LARP. this is something i dont think berget should do, cause the majority of the players who come to berget are mostly pure airsofters.

But putting RP/LARP elements in the biggest airsoftgame in the world makes it more alive and colourful. but player should be aware that there are certain rules depending on which side they choose to play on. E.x If youre Nato its obviuos youre not supposed to shoot unarmed civilians. this does not only apply for RP reason but also to minimize the risk of pure LARPs to be seriously hurt. (i saw some of the marks the girls got and they were nasty, under saftey marks).

secondly as Hammer wrote in the post Majk quoted, people with deadrags should not stand around inside a LARP city, they should bleed out on the spot, lay down on the ground and then walk straight to respawn. gathering in a LARP village will ruin some of the experience for the LARP players.

secondly to that, BE should make sure that all deadrags are orange and not a vest. several players said that they didnt trust people with yellow vests to be berget crew since so many players used yellow vests as deadrag.
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Post by Majk » 09 Jul 2009, 15:58

Yeah, I knew right after I posted that it wasn't accurate to say that milsim cannot include LARP, but I let it stay cause it simplifies a bit and people had already started voting..

About Milsim, Berget-Events arrange a milsim every autumn called Crossroads. It's usally a smaller game with less budget, but it's still appriciated.
mcuz wrote:
Bulow wrote: Advanced survival skills - players shall be capable to carry all the equiment on their back and to survive 36 hours away from the car.
That would depend on game type. Would be true if acting as for example a SAS unit on a recon mission or similar. But but hardly all modern units are humping around with bergens. Would be just as much MILSIM acting as ODA/CAG/DEVGRU teams in pickups/HMMWV's a-stan style. Or basic base defense.

For me it's odd that MILSIM is associated with packing allot of weight.

And the part where you should only be allowed to have 30 rounds in a mz (know you didn't say that and I hate hi-caps) is just wrong, if our blazters fired something more accurate than a BB then maybe.
I think you are absolutely right mcruz. MilSim is defined by your mission and the type of unit you're trying to give form to. But sadly there's to common with players in recon/sniper/SF teams complaining about too long hikes and too little action and still stating they are milsim players... Sadly I think the word MilSim got to much hype as of a "badass" word and thing to state that you are.
Crapgame wrote: secondly to that, BE should make sure that all deadrags are orange and not a vest. several players said that they didnt trust people with yellow vests to be berget crew since so many players used yellow vests as deadrag.
Yes. Bright yellow is not a deadrag color! and the rag should be placed on the head cause that's where you don't want to be shoot. This has kinda annoyed me during the game but there was always bigger issues to take care of instead..
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Berget style

Post by Bulow » 09 Jul 2009, 17:52

To crew
Berget crew please make the Berget (for me great airsoft vacation with friends I share same hobby with) as it was now it was great (at least for me).

Hard MILSIM we do at home all the time but this was something different more socializing meeting old friends and having fun (MILSIMERs have all opportunity to do MILSIM as they wish during Berget if they want)

What is Berget
I think that what is Berget about is an old school airsoft - mainly meeting friends you know from abroad, lot of trigger happyness ,fast respawn, transportation as attraction and easy softing I think its perfect for Berget most of the people would be happy.

(Make respawn 2 hours and you will se how many people would moan) respawn too long bla bla. With 30 minutes crowd gets happy:)

About LARP
Include more LARP players if you can but keep in mind that making structuralised LARP game in the Airsoft games is very difficult because it is a separate game it self and without preplaned MILSIM scenario impossible.

Players at Berget
It is important to understand that Barget attracks all type of airsoft players - speedballers, MILSIMErs, LARPERS, and main stream softers. You will never make probably all happy - unless people attending would have the right expectations about what they are going to experience.

B5 to B7 comparison
When we went with bunch of people from CR on B5 we expected MILSIm and sadly we havent received that - we were kindly dissaponted and skipped B6 but for the B7 we came back the same people but the mind set up and expectation was different: mainly meeting friends and having fun together ( game vise we had played all hours of the game walked around 60 km during the game and had lot of fun together) and that what is berget about to me.

About MILSIM:
Well word Milsim lately got very hype and popular as it seems but Im more than sure it is different from country to country and from team to team.

Most of MILSIM in Czech republic are happening without cars you are ussually dropped somewhere and than you continue on your feet there for we do not have many mobile MILSIMers.

One of the MILSIM skills is to pack correctly for the 36 hour mission and 25+ km walk
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Re: What is MILSIM

Post by Trasher-HU » 09 Jul 2009, 18:03

mcuz wrote: For me it's odd that MILSIM is associated with packing allot of weight.
Regular infantry is associated with lugging a lot of weight... SF is associted with packing even more. If we simulate these units (most of the time we do), the milsimmer SHOULD BE CAPABLE of packing a lot* of weight. He can do the ODA/DEVGRU thing in a pickup, but he should be reasonably fit to lug backpacks, if that is the mission...

Yes, Milsim should be associated with players who are a little more fit / prepared than regular airsofters. I wouldn't call myself a fit or sporty person, but I had no problem with lugging a 25-30kg load (including vest, excluding rifle) for 2 days / 50km in a winter recon game.

*lot = more than the average speedballer, skirmisher.
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Post by Os » 09 Jul 2009, 18:45

It should be Action/Milsim in the vote...
Such as Action/LARP.
For me its easy to combine action milsim.
Just let the milsimers walk for some exstra miles before they get a fire fight :P

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Heavy load

Post by Bulow » 09 Jul 2009, 19:38

I totaly agree with Trasher.

Some people ( 2 ussually around 30 years of age ) have ussualy extra weight in special BB armor (Some times called beer belly) unfortunately mine extra 10 kg is always load no matter what mission Im on:).

You must just beat the drum and march bravely:)
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Post by motorhead » 09 Jul 2009, 19:41

Agree with Os - it should've been Action/Milsim in the vote.

I also conclude that Berget is an excellent and unique arena where all elements of airsoft can be combined - that is milsim, LARP and action.

But B7 showed beyond all doubts that ingame factions must play their roles better and have better coherency. They must follow their respective ingame doctrines to the full and their commanders and leaders must not be bogged down with elementary game setup logistics more logically being the game organizer's responsibility.

Next year the only way to have a policing batallion size ingame unit function is to have it set up and operated as a mostly milsim operated batallion with properly group-thinking players recruited.

If civilian-style LARP ethics apply - allowing backstabbing and rogue activty - such a unit cannot function as a true ingame mandate-bound unit and the involved players should be subjected to ingame consequences of some sort. Otherwise roleplaying NATO at future Berget games will be an ingame farce without meaning.

Even better would be to question/demand player candidate mandate loyalty for ingame NATO tasks already at ticket purchase. Operating in such a big airsoft unit requires more than appropriate kit and uniforms.
We need players being able to see themselves as parts of a bigger picture - and enjoy it even if there's not intense firefights all day.

BE crew acting as virtual warplanes offering airborne ordnance dropped at given coordinates and emulating "brigade"-level commanders or powerful politicians towards the different factions would also add an authentic atmosphere.
Loads of possibilities here. :)
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