Feed back: In-game vehicles

Feedback e debriefings from Berget 8.
ReconProG
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Feed back: In-game vehicles

Post by ReconProG » 03 Jul 2010, 23:06

We encountered an interesting problem with some of the vehicles. What's more interesting, this issue was with unarmored vehicles. With the armor it's simple - you either destroy the vehicle or not depending on whether you have an ATW or not.

With unarmored vehicles however there was a certain problem. We couldn't use an ATW on the vehicle as most of them didn't have a BAVS2.0 installed, nor could we "destroy" these with gunfire as the rules regulate no such thing. The rules only regulate stopping the vehicle by taking out the driver.

I'll describe a few cases which we all encountered in the duration of the event.

If the driver just ducks behind the dashboard to hide himself and the other occupants of the vehicle guide him, the vehicle is almost unstoppable unless you hit everyone, besides or including the driver. Another "bug" is healing the driver. A medic sitting next to the driver can just heal him if the driver's hit. So the vehicle again becomes operational and there's no rules-regulated way to destroy it with means other than BAVS. That's no rule breaking as long as the driver's only been hit once so far but it makes the vehicle somewhat unstoppable.

If the unarmored vehicles don't have BAVS receivers installed they're virtually indestructible according to the rules. They can only be (temporarily) stopped. And it seems somewhat illogical and somewhat unrealistic to NEED to fire an ATW at an unarmored open top jeep for instance.

Maybe the rules need to be changed a bit to take this thing into account too? I personally can't think of how to regulate this in a foolproof way but maybe the discussion will bring the best ideas out. :)
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Post by 1st-Berlin/AEG_Pyro » 04 Jul 2010, 00:08

... but you got mines to stop thise vehicles...
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Post by Crapgame » 04 Jul 2010, 00:10

Seriously? In the Poldavian 3rd mech-team we had a mindstate that a burst to the windsheild took out the vehicle, and shooting the driver stops it....

so out un-armoured vehicles died several times, and i think we had a refrence for killing our vehicles in the rules... :?
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Post by WhiteAce » 04 Jul 2010, 03:16

Next to the burst of BB's on the windshield for taking out the driven (has to stop) only an engineer can take out the vehicle by putting his/her hands on the car. In this manner the car is blown-up/distroyed.

But I think there should be other possibilities as well. Other games allow the grenade launcher as a legitimate means of taking a car out too.
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Post by Trasher-HU » 04 Jul 2010, 04:37

The Berget vehicle rules are unclear and confusing at several points:

- taking out vs stopping vs destroying vs disabling (confusing array of terms)
- status of passengers after AT strike on armored and unarmored vehicles? (dead, hit, alive?)
- why engineers can't repair/heal vehicles?
- why only engineers can destroy vehicles via the "magic touch"? (or by whatever means)

We also use grenade launchers with BB shower from close range (like 5-7m maximum, to the windshield, or the driver won't notice it) to take out vehicles and everybody onboard.
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Post by Pete » 04 Jul 2010, 09:21

Installing BAVS to other than armored vehicles creates unnecessary friction between players. We had an armored transport in the game and the driver encountered at least twice players who were demanding that the car was destroyed after they shot it to the window. On the other occasion a human wave attack stopped the car in Tienanmen square style (totally against the rules and also extremely dangerous!!). This was reported to the crew and car continued to operate later on, unharmed.
Taking out a non armored vehicle
To stop an ordinary vehicle it is enough to shoot a burst of bb´s on the drivers side of the windshield or side window. All drivers will be instructed to stop and yell hit when struck by a burst of bb´s. Only the driver is hit if the vindshield, standard hit rules apply for others in the car.

So you do not need an AT-weapon to stop a car for instance. Stopping a vehicle is not the same as destroying a vehicle. Only engineers or AT-weapons can destroy a car by shooting or putting his/hers hand on it for two minutes and then tell the driver it is blown up or disabeld. Then it have to return to re-spawn flying a orange flag or marking, to indicate that they are off-game.
The latter part should be changed, everyone not just the engineers should have the possibbility to destroy an unarmored car. This would balance the game, and is more realistic. ALSO, there should be a rule how to acquire vehicles from the opposing forces. If vehicle is stopped and cleared of enemy personnel, there should be a rule of "salvaging" it to the capturing side. If not the vehicle in question per se (if it is privately owned) but there should be some benefit to the capturing side in this case also.
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Post by hezi » 04 Jul 2010, 11:58

Thursday night we encountered with a big truck with a missile on it,
the truck was with the Poldavian force at the time,

can someone specify how we were suppose to stop it ?
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Post by Tiger_1 » 04 Jul 2010, 17:41

That truck was fitted with BAVS system. So either hit it with a AT-4, stop it with a mine (either it runs over one and blow up, or it get stopped by mines leaving it possibel to blow up by enginers). This is the only way to stop a amoured car. All Berget trucks were defined as armoured as long as they had BAVS sensors on them.
I would belive this problem will slowly go away as all ingame cars will be fitted with BAVS systems in the future. Also, Berget is working on a 40mm shell that will fire the BAVS system IR beam, and will work with any airsoft 40mm tube. This system will then be able to take out light cars fitted with BAVS, alongside using BAVS AT systems.
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Post by turret » 05 Jul 2010, 13:58

Pete wrote:On the other occasion a human wave attack stopped the car in Tienanmen square style (totally against the rules and also extremely dangerous!!). This was reported to the crew and car continued to operate later on, unharmed.
I dont know if its the same story (we were near Old drilling site) but my platoon stopped one Armored car with the human attack (as you say) once because there was no way to stop the car.
The only dangerous part was because the driver was way above the 30km speed limit and the fact that he wanted to go through even if they were people on the road in front of him.

I havent read in the rules that you cant stop a car by staying on the road.

However, he stopped, we used our engineer for 2 minutes and it was taken out. The drivers and its load (some 10 guys) made it fairplay and declared themselves HIT.
So in the end, use your brain and any situation can find an easy solution.
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Post by Touko » 05 Jul 2010, 17:29

turret wrote:
Pete wrote:On the other occasion a human wave attack stopped the car in Tienanmen square style (totally against the rules and also extremely dangerous!!). This was reported to the crew and car continued to operate later on, unharmed.
(some text removed)

I havent read in the rules that you cant stop a car by staying on the road.

However, he stopped, we used our engineer for 2 minutes and it was taken out. The drivers and its load (some 10 guys) made it fairplay and declared themselves HIT.
So in the end, use your brain and any situation can find an easy solution.
Disclaimer: What follows is my opinion about the subject in general, not a direct comment on the above-mentioned incident. Wasn't there. Those who were know better.

I checked the rules and no, there doesn't seem to be anything against stopping a car by standing on the road.

IMO there should be a rule against it. In most games where there have been vehicles there are explicit rules stating that all foot-mobiles are to be extremely cautions around vehicles.

Point 1) Being near a moving vehicle is dangerous. Although in most cases no-one will get injured, there is potential for serious injury here: any mistake by the driver and someone on the road can be hit by the vehicle. This may be due to: getting distracted, having limited visiblity or getting surpriced by foot-mobiles.

Point 2) Whether the vehicle is armoured or not, it would (in most cases) realistically be able to ram through any and all enemy personel. If you haven't prepared any anti-armour weaponry against armoured vehicles, that's the fault of you or someone up you chain of command. Deal with it without endangering anyones health, please?

My 2 cents: In my opinion the rules should require that all players must move away from or to the side of the road when moving vehicles approach. This should include friendly troops and enemy combatants as well as civillians, regardless of them being wounded. Safety first!

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Post by Pete » 05 Jul 2010, 23:53

turret wrote: I dont know if its the same story (we were near Old drilling site) but my platoon stopped one Armored car with the human attack (as you say) once because there was no way to stop the car.
The only dangerous part was because the driver was way above the 30km speed limit and the fact that he wanted to go through even if they were people on the road in front of him.

I havent read in the rules that you cant stop a car by staying on the road.
Rules do not state to the fact that you cannot stop a vehicle by standing on the road, however, rules state:
Tanks & Armoured vehicles can only be eliminated with the BAVS 2.0 system. Heavy tanks like T-72´s etc have 3 hitpoints, lighter armoured vehicles have 2.
So, per rules you may have stopped the armoured vehicle, but you cannot do anything else unless you have a BAVS to use. So your engineer use would not have been enough to take it out anyways. My guys were advised to fairplay in any confrontation and report to a trustee afterwards.

The event was explained to the Berget Crew and gamemaster and their verdict was the same as mine as a Berget trustee: Armored vehicles cannot be stopped by human wave attacks. I am sure this will be explicitly imported to the rules next year. The points of safety Touko pointed, are more than valid. Everything that is not forbidden by the rules is not necessarily allowed. Like you said, use you brain.

And by the way, don´t be too hasty blaiming drivers going too fast. 30 km is in fact quite fast when observed from roadside.
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Post by Infinity » 06 Jul 2010, 01:23

If this topic is meant for general feedback about vehicles:

There actually are alot of drivers, driving WAY over the speedlimit, Player vehicle's, armored trucks aswell as game-officials! That way its not a matter IF but WHEN shit is going to hit the fan.
Its not that they have to jump into the role of trafficcop, but IMO, for future games BE should be more strict on the speedlimits!!!
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Post by Robman » 07 Jul 2010, 00:12

I drove a civilian non-armored vehicle (silver 4Runner) without BAVS.

I went a step further when shot by small arms. First, I called myself hit when the windshield was shot. I also called myself wounded when the front doors were shot because IMO those doors would not completely stop real rounds.

I agree with enforcing speed limits for ALL VEHICLES within the game area. And most in-game vehicles respected the speed limit, but I personally witnessed off-game vehicles driving in excess of 50 kph during in-game time. I was a policeman and using a simple time over distance equation that I learned in service allowed me to clock the speed of vehicles.

Also, I think that enforcing the use of helmets for any vehicle without a restrain system (seatbelt) should be mandatory. Especially for external passengers (turret gunner, players in the back of a pick-up bed). And motorcycle helmets for vehicles without seatbelts and roll cages (specifically ATVs).

Also, several people went off-game during the rain in off-game vehicles. Everyone was required to have an orange death rag, so please hang it out your car window while driving in the game area when off-game. Using your hazard lights was a good idea, but everyone was required to have an orange death rag. So use it next time.

Furthermore, be aware of your surroundings. Don't just drive off-game through the middle of a fire fight, especially when there are players lying in the middle of the road screaming for a medic. I actually witnessed this one. Wait for a safe time to drive past. It's just plain rude and selfish. Wait 5-10 minutes, or drive a different route. I understand if your vehicle is no longer combat affective, and you want to clear the area, but if you just came back from getting pizza in town please respect the players still engaged.

I did like how land mines prevented me from driving everywhere. They weren't used alot on day 1 but they were everywhere by Friday, which leads me to my next point. Landmines should be controlled by BE. For example, there should be a maximum amount allotted to a unit. Also, if they do explode, they should be gone for the rest of the game. I saw too many paper plates spray painted green. I also saw little homemade wooden signs that read, "Road Destroyed." I have no idea if any of these demolition props were approved by BE, or if they were made on the fly. But if BE controlls the number of IR launchers, extra BB on a person, etc., then they should also control demolition assets. Anyone can spray paint 50 paper plates and stick them in their rucksack.

I would like to suggest an idea for taking out vehicles without BAVS. What if there were a progression? For example, a vehicle can be "damaged" by a 40mm rocket system (for example, a nerf rocket from M203 launcher). But the vehicle is only stopped. If equipped, the machine gunner or any other weapon system still works. If the vehicle is hit with a second rocket, it is "destroyed." However, during the "damaged" phase, only the driver may get out and repair the vehicle. Both feet must be in contact with the ground and one hand must remain in contact with the "damaged" area. The driver must be in this posture for a set time (5 minutes or more). If the driver is successful or does not receive a second rocket hit, the driver can now drive again. This is only a suggestion for non-BAVS vehicles.
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Post by turret » 07 Jul 2010, 19:05

Touko wrote:Point 1) Being near a moving vehicle is dangerous. Although in most cases no-one will get injured, there is potential for serious injury here: any mistake by the driver and someone on the road can be hit by the vehicle. This may be due to: getting distracted, having limited visiblity or getting surpriced by foot-mobiles.
I totally agree with you.
But for the precision, I'll add that all the plattoon was on the road waiting for the incoming vehicle for the 2nd time in 5 minutes.
We were all clearly visible from a long distance and that's why we imagined that the driver could only stop or make a U-turn.

Maybe it was a misinterpretation of the rules but it worked with us.
Next year, BE should add more specifications to this kind of rules for sure.
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Post by freno » 07 Jul 2010, 20:04

I have anothrer suggestion. I think it would be good to "keep-down" interrest in shooting on windshield. IT WILL BRAKE!!!

Several evidence about smashed windows has been written before in the forum. Investigations have pointed out, that eaven with "common bulletspeed" the windows can brake.

I know it´s up to me to use my car in-game, but if we need to change windows every time we got shot...???
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