What really happen whit civilians at the end

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Wasteland
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Post by Wasteland » 03 Jul 2011, 16:41

As one of the bank guards, but not with a blue shirt, I can think of quite a few strong words regarding "not shooting at civilians unless fired upon". We NEVER fired the first shoot from our roof, we usually didn't return fire until after several hundred shoots had hit our building (I kid you not). We always had people on the roof, fully visible but rarely with guns showing unless we had already been fired upon. I don't think we shoot a single NAF, they always entered peacefully when Poldavians seemed to come in guns blazing from the very first time.

The aiming towards the Civ/UN respawn mentioned earlier most likely refers to the very bad behaviour from several Poldavians (from several nations) after the church had been blown up with almost all civilians inside (on Saturday). When pretty much all of Janco were waiting to respawn, we were aimed at, on purpose, by surrounding Poldavians. That's bad form and against more then one rule of the game, it had nothing to do with other forces being in the vicinity.

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Post by Tor » 03 Jul 2011, 16:46

Ocelot wrote:
My only experience with a civilian was near janco during a fire fight with naf forces. I saw a civ medic on the ground, i take him out from the fireline, brought him to a medic to heal him.


I think it was me you helped. I was running around as an unarmed civilian trying to heal anyone wounded. Anyway, thanks for the rescue.

Regarding armed civilians. I felt like almost every civilian player respected the "don't run around with guns" rule, except for the last day of course. The Firm guys may have had civilian armbands, but where easy to spot with there logo caps and heavy arment. But next time a different armband (uniform ?) for PMCs would be preferable.

I agree that the Poldavians never really got a chance to interact with the population of Janco wich was a pity. But every year we learn something from our mistakes, and I will now try to be constructive.

Perhaps a future solution to allow all factions to interact with the folks in the city without having to invade it would be to make it a border town, inside another country. That country would allow any faction inside the town as long as they are unarmed. That way the civilians could do there LARPing without doing it in a combat zone. The city would become a LARP- or PLAYZONE. PMCs could handle the security. Inside the city NAF/Poldavians should be able to "buy/rent" simpler CQB weapons (pistols, grenades, knifes) from shady civs (if a mission requires it), or alternatively smuggled in by a civ.

A "playzone" would allow NAF/Poldivians players to do more then just fighting and allowing them to take part in the fun of LARPing.
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Post by badstar » 03 Jul 2011, 17:38

Tor wrote: I agree that the Poldavians never really got a chance to interact with the population of Janco wich was a pity. But every year we learn something from our mistakes, and I will now try to be constructive.

Perhaps a future solution to allow all factions to interact with the folks in the city without having to invade it would be to make it a border town, inside another country. That country would allow any faction inside the town as long as they are unarmed. That way the civilians could do there LARPing without doing it in a combat zone. The city would become a LARP- or PLAYZONE. PMCs could handle the security. Inside the city NAF/Poldavians should be able to "buy/rent" simpler CQB weapons (pistols, grenades, knifes) from shady civs (if a mission requires it), or alternatively smuggled in by a civ.

A "playzone" would allow NAF/Poldivians players to do more then just fighting and allowing them to take part in the fun of LARPing.
Spot on Tor. I played as an poldovian soldier. I feel like we never got any real good info on why we did our missions aswell as the setting of this "game" as it changed throughout.

I felt that Janco was some sort of center for the hole conflict. This might be the sole problem making the instabilety and chaos in each factions plans and gameplay.

It's utopia to think that larp and airsoft could go hand in hand without clear perimeters and strict rules.

For future Berget-events i realy hope that civilian citys are nauteral and have strict weapon-polecies, even for armed civilian factions.

On a secound note:
I was in Janco in the middle of the night as we moved through to engage the UN-base. There was civilians spoted and shots where fired.
In my opinion that should have gone differently, but it is hard to have strict controll of every soldier.
The Poldovian army where for the most part on their own agains all other factions, they where tens, distrusting, but still eager... maby to eager even.
In situations like that it is easyer to act and and ask for forgiveness, than to ask for permission.

All in all i had a prety good berget 9, but i felt i missed out on alot sins we as poldovians quickly had opposition from every faction.
Looking forward to next year :)

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Post by Buffel » 03 Jul 2011, 19:30

As a Poldavian 3rd Mountaineer player are ROE were as follows:

- Civilians: Only shoot if fired upon
- UN: Only shoot if fired upon, this changed briefly to 'free to shoot' the back to only shoot if fired upon
- Firm: Treated like civilians but we very soon heard rumours of them being hired by NAF so treated them with distrust.

To my knowledge there ROE were strictly adered to by all of the 4th platoon of the mountaineers.
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Post by Trasher-HU » 03 Jul 2011, 19:59

What happened with the civvies at Janco?

As we saw it (and we were observing the incident), a certain poldavian unit (from a certain nationality) went rogue, pissed on their direct orders, and stormed Janco city for fun... Same sh*t happened at B7 with NAF.


Why poldavians didn't interact with civvies?


Most poldavian soldiers didn't have the slightest clue WTF is going on in the field, how the big picture is developing (this is a major problem with all Berget events). Many units had run-ins with armed civvies (or armed groups acting as civvies, tricking/ambushing units who tried to interact) so no wonder the poldavs (especially the bad apples) got a bit too trigger happy...

There is a very easy solution to this and it works like charm for years: no armed civvies on the field, no-gun LARP zones, and several punishment to the side that massacres civvies for no reason, thanks!
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Post by yasirotta » 03 Jul 2011, 21:02

Os wrote:It wasnt easy telling the diffrence bettven civilians in the firm and other civilians.
So, knifekilling captured civilian, whitout Firm marks and no weapons is ok ?
They really knew who they was killing.
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Post by yasirotta » 03 Jul 2011, 21:04

Trasher-HU wrote: There is a very easy solution to this and it works like charm for years: no armed civvies on the field, no-gun LARP zones, and several punishment to the side that massacres civvies for no reason, thanks!
There wasnt armed civilians, only the Firm.
We took our guns at last day, when we got tired. Well, maybe few players got handguns or something, but much more that half was unarmed. We even surrender, but theres no point. We got killed anyway.

I can kill civilians at next game. Lets see how cool is that.
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Post by kyosuke » 03 Jul 2011, 21:24

I killed a single civ the entire game, yes i pointed my gun at them, threaten dem, threw them back the way they came and such LARP'ing a soldier and his orders.

but i only killed a single civ and it was becouse he pulled a gun at me.
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Post by Os » 03 Jul 2011, 21:30

yasirotta wrote:
Os wrote:It wasnt easy telling the diffrence bettven civilians in the firm and other civilians.
So, knifekilling captured civilian, whitout Firm marks and no weapons is ok ?
They really knew who they was killing.
No not that.

I didnt see any any killing of civilians that wasnt armed.
I didnt get the chanse to larp whit any civilians.
I understood that the poldavian army was the bad guys anyway, the army of a bad dictator. So that we had bad apples in the army dont supprise me :)
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Post by Rythm » 03 Jul 2011, 21:57

As a UN Platoon XO: Our ROE changed dramaticly on thursday, after the Poldavians crushed the southern checkpoint and after a stand-off then assaulted into Janco and and into the UN Base, overrunning it. Why the Poldavians did this i still dont know. (Once again sorry to the Poldavian unit of some 20 blokes that we machinegunned in the middle of our LARPing at the northern checkpoint, the new ROE came over the radio as we spoke...;)

From that point on, there were so many regular attacks on the VCPs and the UN-base that the acting Battalion Commander (Crazydog) ordered UN to defend only the UN base itself. Wich wasnt strange since we were so extremly outnumbered (fighting force of 67 IIRC) against the Poldavians, and the "powerfull NATO airstrikes" turned out to be rather useless.

The ROE versus civilians was only shoot in selfdefence. I dont know, but i think we didnt kill any civilians. except in the miserably failed airstrikes.

ROE against NAF changed so many times i cant count them. sometimes we were best buddies and they could respawn in our base, sometimes we were about to launch massive airstrikes on their base and we were to shoot them on sight.

Considering how many times the poldavians overrunned Janco/UN-base i fully understand that the civilian LARPing was a minimum. The little LARPing i managed to squeeze in was great fun tough.

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Post by Panzergraf » 03 Jul 2011, 22:59

Well, as The Firm = Zansian Black Ops (NAF), I'm not really surprised they had plenty of run-ins with Poldavian forces.

LARP isn't just talking shit with a funny accent, it's action and reaction, and doing what seems natural for your "character" in a certain situation. Some times that means shooting people.
For a regular soldier in the Poldavian Army (or NAF or whatever), going into a mostly hostile area just to visit a casino or something is IMHO waaaay out of character. So much that it's just silly.

As much as I love role playing and airsoft, I've yet to see the two be combined properly, without any form of meta gaming or the wonky accents and silly cliches that, to me at least, seemed to be what Janco was all about.
From what I've heard, Berget 8 had some decent civilian role playing, but I never saw any of it as it was detached from the more combat oriented aspects of the game. Maybe that's what made it good...


Also, through Janco was the only way to reach certain areas of the field by vehicle. You'd have to be pretty naive to think it wouldn't be a battlefield.

One incident that could be considered role playing was pretty fucking awesome. The first night, when the 1st Mechanized wanted to pass through Janco, and my Coy Commander Jaffa had to resort to some pretty heavy handed diplomacy to get through. That shit was tense!
I was this close to opening up on the UN Troops running down to the northern checkpoint before I saw their commander lay down his weapon.

Again, players doing what seems natural to their "character" (even if their character is as simple as "Poldavian/NAF soldier") is much better role playing than just talking shit with a funny accent.
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Post by Hell_Viking » 03 Jul 2011, 23:14

Well, i had quite a bit of LARPing with the civ. And it was great fun !
And when we issued traffictickets people acted realy well. We had everything from payment upfront, to lawsuit againgt the UN for breaking international law because of a seatbelt ticket ! Great job LARPers !
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Post by Buffel » 03 Jul 2011, 23:20

Trasher-HU wrote: Most poldavian soldiers didn't have the slightest clue WTF is going on in the field, how the big picture is developing (this is a major problem with all Berget events).
/signed. In some cases we hardly knew what our overall mission was. That there was anything going on involving e.g. a satellite was not something we were ever aware of in-game. We got some overall tactical information (we are kicking ass/we are being owned atm/our troops are at .../their troops are at ...) but as a grunt squad comms operator I never heard anything much on the overall picture.

Now I am not sure how much the overall picture SHOULD be our concern, just confirming that Trasher's impression matches mine.
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Post by Jonkokk » 04 Jul 2011, 00:16

My encounters with civs was quite funny, even if one of the encounters ended with a bloodbath.
The LARPers that came walking up the road to the Poldovian base and encountered our VCP, you were awesome to experience! Great stuff, you made my day!
The same goes for the three guys in boots and underwear.. That whole scenario going on from when you reacted with us in the VCP untill I shot out the car that came to help you... Priceless.

But I've heard of cases with execution of civs, and I don't think thats alright. You guys just add something else to game taht in my eyes make the game more complete. Too bad this things happen :/
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Post by D-Cycle » 04 Jul 2011, 00:39

Trasher-HU wrote:
As we saw it (and we were observing the incident), a certain poldavian unit (from a certain nationality) went rogue, pissed on their direct orders, and stormed Janco city for fun... Same sh*t happened at B7 with NAF.
I wonder if lack of English language skills increases the lack of interest to LARP with civilians. Those bad experiences I've had are mostly involved with players that don't speak or speak very bad english.

I wouldn't have minded some interacting/LARPing against civilian players, but there were very few opportunities. Our platoon were going for a social patrol in Janco, but before even heading out we got new orders to do something else. I played on the civilian side at B7 and had no problems LARPing with non civilian players then.

It's just too bad when civilians just become unarmed targets.
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