Feedback over all

Feedback and debriefings from Berget 12
Coffe
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Re: Feedback over all

Post by Coffe » 03 Jul 2014, 12:03

@ CyBear

You can't really blame base defense and command issues on BE. That falls under the responsibilities of your in-game commanders.

It's not as bad all around either. Too bad you got commanders that you were dissatisfied with, things went a lot better in that regard when playing as a Raven.

Also you did the right thing when doing an unauthorized mission. Take it from a Berget veteran here that if you feel that your commanders suck and aren't providing you with any fun, then just go AWOL and find fun on your own and let them be as mad about it as they like (it's not against the rules).

Unfortunately some people who sign up for command aren't very good at it, and others think that being commander is their opportunity to "boss people around" and decide everything for themselves, which it isn't. Their main task is to make sure that their subordinates are having fun, not treating them as their slaves.

You should only really follow orders in game if you trust your commander and that his or her intentions are for you and your comrades to have fun. If your commander gives you reasons to doubt these intentions then f**k 'em. Berget can be fun while disobeying orders too. :)

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Re: Feedback over all

Post by Panzergraf » 03 Jul 2014, 12:30

Before going AWOL and doing stuff on your own, here are a few things you should do if you are dissatisfied with your command:
1- Simply talk to the guy, one on one, or find someone on your team who can do it for you. Tell him why he's making your Berget experience worse, and that many others think so to. I'm sure he would appreciate that more than having it posted on the forums that he sucks.
If he's too stubborn to listen, well --- SPAM !!! --- it. Go do your thing.

2 - Get more involved with command. Do some pre-game planning on the forums.
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diamid
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Re: Feedback over all

Post by diamid » 03 Jul 2014, 13:09

An other important thing concering going AWOL, is that some parts of the story/missions can be very sensitiv, with a very huge chance of screw-up.

Say Team A have a mission to become ally of Team B. After much hard work and LARP by the members of team A, Team B agrees, as long as Team A does not kill any of their soldiers and or keep away from their Gold Mine.

Then squad Romeo of Team A decides; "f*ck this, we are going to do what we want, when we want". Squad Romeo decided they are going to steal some gold. They slay Team B's guards and rob the mine.

Team A fails at completing the mission to become ally of Team B. Team B is angry and want revenge, and all the hard work done by others in Team A is wasted. Since Team A failed at completing the mission, they did not get mission-price, "the magic box". And without the Magic box, they cant continue the story and things grind to a holt. Where other members of Team A have to wait and see if the Commander of Team A can manage to solve the screw up Squad Romeo have created.

Of course these things can be sorted out, or BE can change thing so the story can continue. But again, think before doing anything. What you do, can have a butterfly effect.

Like Panzergraf said. If you are disatisfied, and want more action. Talk to your HQ first, see if there is something you can do, or ask what the ROE are at that given time.

There is nothing wrong with going out by yourself, just make sure to get the lates info and status.
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Coffe
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Re: Feedback over all

Post by Coffe » 03 Jul 2014, 14:23

diamid wrote:An other important thing concering going AWOL, is that some parts of the story/missions can be very sensitiv, with a very huge chance of screw-up.

Say Team A have a mission to become ally of Team B. After much hard work and LARP by the members of team A, Team B agrees, as long as Team A does not kill any of their soldiers and or keep away from their Gold Mine.

Then squad Romeo of Team A decides; "f*ck this, we are going to do what we want, when we want". Squad Romeo decided they are going to steal some gold. They slay Team B's guards and rob the mine.

Team A fails at completing the mission to become ally of Team B. Team B is angry and want revenge, and all the hard work done by others in Team A is wasted. Since Team A failed at completing the mission, they did not get mission-price, "the magic box". And without the Magic box, they cant continue the story and things grind to a holt. Where other members of Team A have to wait and see if the Commander of Team A can manage to solve the screw up Squad Romeo have created.

Of course these things can be sorted out, or BE can change thing so the story can continue. But again, think before doing anything. What you do, can have a butterfly effect.

Like Panzergraf said. If you are disatisfied, and want more action. Talk to your HQ first, see if there is something you can do, or ask what the ROE are at that given time.

There is nothing wrong with going out by yourself, just make sure to get the lates info and status.
Agreed, with one point to add though.

I've watched BE's way of handling a story and missions for some time now, and frankly I don't like it very much. I often hear from commanders, regardless of which side im playing for that they feel hogtied and constrained by the gamemasters in how to proceed and direct their forces during the game.

It's like BE has certain events scripted from the start and fighting factions aren't allowed to deviate from these plans. (just take the anti-climactic ending for this yeara game for example, where the Ravens and Orlovs in-game wise dominated the map, yet somehow due to GM-involvement the Ravens lost their president for no good reason at all, simply because BE had decided from the start that he was going to get kidnapped).

This is a really bad way of handling a supposedly interactive game scenario. The players should govern the direction the story is going through their in-game actions, not the gamemasters.

The job of a good gamemaster is to facilitate the story and throw in interesting situations that the players can choose how to get involved in. I.e leaving the command of fighting factions completely free to choose how they wish to deploy their forces, not forcing them to send platoon x or unit y to defend or capture objective z because the gamemasters prewritten script says so.

And the only way of moving towards that kind of game is by promoting AWOL-actions and making sure that loose-cannon players mess up BE-scripted missions. The sooner BE admits that their manic need of control is both impossible to get and only serves to reduce the fun of the scenario, the better.

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diamid
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Re: Feedback over all

Post by diamid » 03 Jul 2014, 15:24

Since I did not attend this year, I will let someone els answer about the GMs involvment this year. Since I only have 2nd and 3rd part stories.

But I fully agree. The story should have a life of its own, with the outcome controlled by the players. But I do see and understand the need for BE/GM to adjust a litle bit left or right from time to time. Just to make the story line for each faction work. But I am persoanlly against large story turning grips taken by GM.

That being said, last year I felt we had pretty mutch free controll, and manage to have a lot of fun. And yes, there is pre made missions and a story line, but that does not hinder us in letting players roll out on their own.

Last yaer, I was XO of the Ravens. From time to time some squads stopped by the HQ tent and ask if we had any mission for them. Most of the time we did, but for some we did not. For those players we ask them what they would like to do.

For example one squad, that had just respawned, they wanted to do something sneaky with a huge possibilty for a fire fight. This was late at night, and most of they Coy was sleeping. From the intel we had, we knew there was some enemy activty north on the map. We sent them out on a search and destroy mission. It was not planned, scripted or part of the story, but a player made mission. We gave them the latest intel and an ROE, and of the went. They came back 6hrs later, and had had a blast.

Of course, there can be times where there is nothing to do, or no possibility for player made missions. But it does not hurt to ask. I know it sucks to sit around and wait, but that is a part of the game. Its MilSim, and waiting is a big part of any war.

If you want free play, with a large portion of LARP. Go as Civilian and sell your squad as mercenaries. Could have been Lerando Freedom fighters. (Just run it past BE first) From my experience, they welcome idees like that, you just have to give it a good justifaction and the idee behind it. :wink:
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Coffe
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Re: Feedback over all

Post by Coffe » 03 Jul 2014, 15:47

Except for one thing my friend: Berget isn't a Milsim game. I know a lot of milsim-players like to participate, but we all got to accept that Berget isn't a milsim event.

Just needed to put it out there. :wink:

That said, I've been giving it some serious consideration to play as a civilian next year or the year after that (we plan on attending Border Wars next year, but it's not set in stone yet). It would coincide nicely with my idea of being able to play as a "lone sniper" that I've dreamed of.

Sure there are sniper units in the military factions, but I don't want to be shoehorned into a milsim-unit and be forced to drag around a spotter with me. I just want to go out in the woods, on my own volition, be one with the nature and cap some unsuspecting guys in uniform who happen to stroll into my current territory. :D

So, playing as a civilian hunter, with an average bolt-action hunting rifle (and maybe a contraband back-up piece) would be my cup of tea. (at least once)

Maybe I'll sell my services for a hefty compensation of Berget Dollars to one of the fighting factions... Or maybe not. You can never really tell which side Coffe is on. :D

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Jani
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Re: Feedback over all

Post by Jani » 03 Jul 2014, 19:30

Coffe, I had the exact same idea for next year regarding civilian "hunter" or similar type of guns for hire :D
It's only that I want to play the Ravens through this story, unless GMs --- SPAM !!! --- it up to much :|
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Re: Feedback over all

Post by M.Svensson » 03 Jul 2014, 19:49

Jani wrote:Coffe, I had the exact same idea for next year regarding civilian "hunter" or similar type of guns for hire :D
It's only that I want to play the Ravens through this story, unless GMs --- SPAM !!! --- it up to much :|
Well I really hope that this was the end of the GCT - ravens campaign seeing as the ravens got no more money and your leader is gone. :)
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Re: Feedback over all

Post by Spof » 03 Jul 2014, 19:51

Great feedback guys!

Just one short note from one that have seen all Bergets. Coffe, please state your source of information about that events like Rico getting captured where pre decided and scripted. Who told you that?

The guys working in MC (Mission controll) surley also want to know what you know that we from Berget-events dont know :D
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Re: Feedback over all

Post by kastman » 03 Jul 2014, 21:33

Something I and more people in the group I play with is very bad and has been so for not only this berget is the disregard for speed limits from GMs. Also burning around on a motorcycle clearly over the speed limit of 30 km/h without a helmet is not OK. When we drive our in game car from the game at 30 km/h and being passed by a troop transport going 50 km/h++ those things do not stop very fast its a miracle that there hasn't been more accident involving GMs driving over the speed limit and sometimes driving very "stressed"..

Would be nice if Berget would do something about this but I doubt it as the GMs has been driving this way for all the bergets I have been to sadly.

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CyBear
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Re: Feedback over all

Post by CyBear » 04 Jul 2014, 00:00

Coffe wrote:@ CyBear

You can't really blame base defense and command issues on BE. That falls under the responsibilities of your in-game commanders.
Agreed, BE can not be held directly responsible for bad command. But the players didn't choose their commanders either (naturally). So the risk of bad command will always be there (unless you have previous experience with said command) , and I have to decide if I want to take that risk again next year.

In hindsight I actually doubt that a few more patrols for base defense would have mattered. Once the Orlovs and Raven were allied it was pretty much written in stone that Blues, and anyone allied with them, would be dominated. On the other hand, I don't think that BE should have stopped them from joining forces. Rather they should have expected it, and planned accordingly, making sure the other factions were strong enough to handle it (or at least have a small chance to resist).

As I said, my solution to this is to distance myself from the UniSec company and play as an unemployed PMC operator. That way I should not be able to mess up any storylines etc. since I will be working with other official factions.

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Re: Feedback over all

Post by Rythm » 06 Jul 2014, 14:21

Spof wrote:Coffe, please state your source of information about that events like Rico getting captured where pre decided and scripted. Who told you that?

The guys working in MC (Mission controll) surley also want to know what you know that we from Berget-events dont know :D
That info comes from 6mm.se , we of course informed our players why all the suicide missions were going on. And while technically BE didnt order us to lose or pre-decide the outcome, ordering us to do missions with less than 10% of the forces we would have usually assigned for a presidential escort mission, is the same in the end.
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Re: Feedback over all

Post by Tasgeir » 06 Jul 2014, 16:30

So time has passed and now I will give my feedback.

-First of the passing of the BAVS receivers on turreted cars, but that have been covered by others in the BAVS feedback.
-I my mind there should be less fractions, the way it is now there are to many fractions who are to much alike both in uniform and mission. This also leads us to the mater of PMC's. I have never been to a game with a PMC unit where that unit have been able to do that type of work. Could those players not just been rolled in to the BoPo or the GCT and done the work there. And different fractions should have different uniforms, not just armbands. It is often hard to see armbands in the woods as players tend not to allways stand up and show us the armband when we see them out there.
-I would like to see less scripting from GM side and more just leting the game run its way.
-The smoke grenades used by Berget crew to mark mortar targeting rounds, how safe is the smoke in them? When running true it did not feel all that safe to me!

And lastly I would like to addresses the way players run interrogations ingame. I know it is fun to let things run fare and pretend torture is just that, pretend. BUT, and this is a big BUT, when it is done in public with 10+ cameras and phones filming and taking pictures we know that some of it will end up on the world wide web.
This kind of interrogations, if deemed absolutely necessary for the game, should be carried out behind closed doors where there is control over cameras and what is filmed.
There is enough people out there trying to make this hobby forbidden as is, if we should not give them more full for the fire.

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Re: Feedback over all

Post by grasulas » 06 Jul 2014, 17:08

Is safe to say you are over reacting, roleplay is roleplay you can have something like this in a reenactment scenario, movie etc, as long the youtube clip has a disclaimer saying is a game roleplay footage we have nothing to hide, believe me as a person with contacts on the other side of the barricade they prefer all our activities in the open even if some times we put them in a embarrassing position.

Pyrotechnics used by the GMs are a bonus to the overall game, personally I wish to see more pyrotechnics used, when your visibility is low stop running and passe carefully, in the end we all participate in a game with strong milsim elements.
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Tiger_1
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Re: Feedback over all

Post by Tiger_1 » 06 Jul 2014, 17:38

Simulated torture and field interrogations have no place in an airsoft game. POW duty should not include anything more then hand over ingame info, held in a designated area for a required time, and then return to base to Respawn.

No matter what you say, it has NO place in our hobby, and it makes me sad every time I see it. And I would like it if it was not a part of what people find when they look up airsoft on the net.
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