Debriefing Berget 13.

Feedback and debriefings from Berget 13
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by Wynn » 30 Jun 2015, 15:02

Glide wrote:I don't see the point of destroying stories/livemoments when they are made up. We made a fantastic story of the police beein' corrupt. It was shot down like Hindenburg.

The story is hopefully out later by one of our crewmembers or in another thread.

Total involved in the story was bout 50 when it all comes around. But the GM took it down with just putting us back in town. We went of b/c of the slow wait. And after asking our highest in order if it was any idéa of keep on playing this story he told us to get in line with the normal forces. That's like telling us it's not a story they want in the game.

Hopefully the police had something new for a while atleast. +Sorry if I hurt someones feelings by beein' rude ingame.
Ah, so that's why Cerberus got the preliminary order to be prepared to take out HADES if Ford gives the go ahead. (We had the only AT4 level BAVS on the red team, and that was a private purchase.)
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by L4gi » 30 Jun 2015, 15:07

Sorner wrote:- Some is complaining about that the GCT HQ was a mess and that people either just sat around doing nothing or went roque. I saw this too but not even close to the same amount and some other people in here. As soon as we returned from a mission then we usually started looking for a new one - and this often ended up with us talking with Psy-ops, Sappers and some mech-inf to find a new spot to attack in force. We took the plan and talked with the HQ and 9 out of 10 times we got the go for the mission. So even though HQ didnt always have a mission people should think out of the box and bring some suggestions - after all its us driving and walking around in the area..
What is this GCT HQ? As far as I know, there was no GCT HQ. If youre talking about the big faded tent near the back of the camp, that was the Para Inf HQ. That might be one of the reasons why you might think the HQ didnt work. Something that doesnt exist cant really work, can it? :P
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by Parzi » 30 Jun 2015, 16:57

L4gi wrote:
Sorner wrote:- Some is complaining about that the GCT HQ was a mess and that people either just sat around doing nothing or went roque. I saw this too but not even close to the same amount and some other people in here. As soon as we returned from a mission then we usually started looking for a new one - and this often ended up with us talking with Psy-ops, Sappers and some mech-inf to find a new spot to attack in force. We took the plan and talked with the HQ and 9 out of 10 times we got the go for the mission. So even though HQ didnt always have a mission people should think out of the box and bring some suggestions - after all its us driving and walking around in the area..
What is this GCT HQ? As far as I know, there was no GCT HQ. If youre talking about the big faded tent near the back of the camp, that was the Para Inf HQ. That might be one of the reasons why you might think the HQ didnt work. Something that doesnt exist cant really work, can it? :P

This is probably what caused great confusion amongs gct players. GCT did not have any HQ that commanded the whole GCT. GCT only had the separate unit commanders like sapper, infantry, mortar etc.

Gamemaster Troll was supposed to be the supreme GCT commander but he usually was not around the base, actually GCT camp did not have a GM around most of the game. The big "HQ" tent was in fact a gathering place for all the unit commanders, a place where we could work. The table with computers was ParaInf TOC (tactical operations center) and that was manned by ParaInf officers. So usually when ppl came to the "HQ" tent they met ParaInf officers. Ofcourse we tried to help the other units as much as we could. Sometimes we gave missions, intel and other stuff. Also sometimes we needed to tell people that hey your unit commander is not here but you can find him from tent X. Our main priority was to provide missions and support to our own unit that was ParaInf but we also did this for other units also when we had the time.

I know this sucks and is confusing but BE wanted that GCT does not have a player in role of a supreme commander. So we tried as best as we could to get things organised. Before the game idea was that i would had ParaInf HQ setup its own HQ in our own sleeping tents but that would have led to situation that no reckonisable HQ would be in the whole GCT base.

Well anyway i will try to make ParaInf debrief soon and maybe it clears the picture for some people.
Last edited by Parzi on 30 Jun 2015, 16:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Berget 13 - GCT Para Infantry Commander

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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by JKangas » 30 Jun 2015, 16:58

I played in Ikaros Minerva Infantry, as part of Finnish bare-bones grunt platoon mostly composed of players from Northern Finland. As such I have very little visibility to game balance things, or even to the big plot of the game. Game experience for me was mostly a series of challenging skirmishes. Incidentally it seemed that we were mostly up against other Finns from GCT Parachute Inf. (?), as battle shouts were more often than not in Finnish.

Arrangements

Nothing to complain. Logistics have been at a great level for a few years already. From ticket registration, check-in, chronoing and to base logistics everything was fine. Water was plentiful and toilets were tidied up once/day - I consider everything else such as access to showers, electricity and Berget kiosk a bonus. Kiosk would benefit from extra hands, I think.

Gameplay

Next to no cheating! Hit-taking was very good this year despite occasional very long respawn walks due to CPs changing ownership. I heard of stories about cheating but witnessed zero; although player-made kill-holes in Krasnovo city should be handled as cheating. They are houses, not bunkers with firing ports.

On the other hand, friendly fire seemed to be at record-high but this was to be expected with botched camo rules. (Woodland on Ikaros, digiwoodland aka MARPAT on GCT. Dark blue armbands practically invisible in woods at evening. Whaaat? Why not tan-based versus green-based camos, with just a few patterns to choose from? This has been my and several other's ongoing wish for several years in a row.)

Sniper-precision artillery: nuff' said already. On Fri morning, after 3 hours of sleep, I walked to GCT base and back without firing a shot. I was not taken out by artillery, but let's say that massacring of units around me did not help my survival.

Area control devices

Practically made game into domination which is not a bad thing in itself. It was fairly unclear which respawn to use in case you were hit and separated from your squad, so for the future you need a better way of making this data available (not nearly everyone has mobile data available). On the other hand, I had no idea if the aim of the game was something else than simply controlling the map. (And do not know it to this day.)

How about something as simple as a LCD monitor showing the map status AND recent events briefly? Set it facing outwards from HQ window so players can check it round the clock. Berget 10 had sitrep printouts near the kiosk and it also worked nicely, a monitor would be more up-to-date. This makes a HUGE impact to player enjoyment, and IMO informing basic grunts about major non-secret game events should not be done by hoping that the info trickles down the command chain.

Krasnovo and other props

Let's just say that I have seen worse airsoft prop cities, but I also understand the difficulty of erecting remotely realistic buildings in the woods. Civilians seemed to hustle with their stuff, I mainly took short R&R and respawn stops there and rarely had the energy to participate. Fighting around the town was always intense and enjoyable.

Overall

This Berget was solidly average, I think. Not bad at all, but felt like a giant domination without any plotline. We had very good high command which contributed to game fun (6mm et al) so I never felt that I was out of stuff to do. Typically we had two lengthy missions per day which left my legs quite worn out and clocked a total of ~55 kms in my GPS unit by the game end. I think that this year went a bit too far towards pure skirmishing - so for future Bergets I would like to see bit more of a plotline and being able to better follow it.

Thanks to all players and BE crew!
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by wormbyte » 30 Jun 2015, 17:31

I had a really enjoyable event.

There were frustrations, but it has all been covered by other people, so there is no need for me to re-iterate.

With regards to the GCT HQ tent, Parzi said it all. As far as I was concerned, it was a Para Inf command tent! But no one officially confirmed either way during the event.

I want to take this opportunity to thank everyone for making the game what is was. All the GM's and staff, the GCT players, the "enemy", the civilians. A big mention has to go to the senior command staff from all sides because they put in so much effort (voluntarily) both pre-game and during the game itself.

Good effort everyone :D
Last edited by wormbyte on 30 Jun 2015, 17:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by beast » 30 Jun 2015, 17:39

This was my 5th berget, the 4th in a row.

I sadly have to say that in my personal experience it has been the worst game ever.

I played, as usual, in Ranger unit that this year was leaded by one member of my Airsoft Club.

Nothing to complain about his work, there may have been some mistakes but it happens.

The overall game was pretty flat, no special missions, no coordination between teams, a lot of confusion and a heavy lack of infos about what was going on.

Like every year radio coms was really bad, instead what's up group was a very good idea, by the way.... what happened to pes system?

Further, like every year, the berget crew doesn't allow commanders and all the players in general, a good pre-game organization: team forum was opened extremely late and the map have been provided almost at last moment.

I'll let ranger's unit commander to speak about ranger's stuff.
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by Gilwen » 01 Jul 2015, 10:31

This was my third Berget Event and have to say it will be probably be my last one.

Played in GCT 1st Infantry as grunt and after first nights massive non-stop fight (which was kind a fun) the game went donwhill and fast. But let me start at the getting there.

The game area was familiar to me (having been there in Berget 6 - Convoy operations), but the first signs to the area were at the entrance to the safe zone. BE should have put little more thought and put up signs to the area the the crossroads leading to the area. Signups and weapon checking were done fast, which was nice, but at no point did anyone want to see our orange dead-rags or safety goggles. Also no one from BE told us where to go from there or even where our base was, we had to ask that from other gamers.
After getting to our base area there were no BE members visible to organize the area, but luckily we had part of our squad there who had reserved area and we pitched our army tent next to them. Was surprised to see several civilian tents all over
with no effort to camouflage. Where was BE? What about the rule of army tent suitable for 12+ people? Area reminded more of gypsy camp than army base.
Clean water, kiosk and plenty of toilets were done nicely and thank you BE for that.

At the start of the game we were told that no enemy force of greater than squad could attack our base, or they would be instantly be killed by AC-10 Warthogs. Having then groups of 40+ enemy attacking the base clearly made that yet another thing the BE didn't oversee.
The game started with massive 4+ hour firefight at CP-10 which was nice and aggressive way to start the game, had some nice moments there and but was surprised how small our side seemed to be, considering the waves of enemies attacking us. Heard later a rumor that GCT was about 250 people smaller than Ikaros, don't know if that was true but about quarter (or even third) smaller side does make attacking a lot harder.

After that first night we run into to non stop problems with our chain of non command. Our squad got about 1 or 2 missions per day and we were told to wait hours in the base. At no point did I hear we were supposed to take a guard post, it was always the same mission. Attack point 10 and take it.
Then I saw one of the biggest problems in the design of the game. Our attacking force was on the wrong side of a mountain, instead of making a game area from north to south (following the roads and mountains), the area was from east to west forcing GCT to attack either by climbing the mountain or going off game by vehicles. All the roads that went to either base were off game area, making the name off-game mean something that it isn't supposed to be. Off-game should be area not accessible to players while playing, not an area you can cross to get elsewhere.

I know there was action elsewhere, but our platoon was told to take CP-10 over and over and over. Never did that point make any sense. the crossroads was useless and the roads were going north and south and went to outside of game area on both ends, with no route to east to our base. Also Ikaros had easy access to point 8 right before the crossroads and if we lost point 10 our spawn was on the other side of the mountain. Cp 8 should have been at the crossroads, while CP 10 should have been north east of it's location at the sidepath connecting the two easternmost roads. Some of the CP location made no real tactical sense.

Our squad never got further in to the game area than CP-10 and CP-5, except on the last night when we made a plan to attack enemy base at night (right before 3am). Again we had to drive off game to get there, as there was no option to drive through the game area thanks to the mountain at the east side. We made it to the camp right before 3am, but didn't really have time to fight so we decided to leave. We mistook the time needed to climb the hill to the enemy base, although we saw only one enemy and circled past him it was nice exercise. Too bad it ended with one of us shooting three snipers from our own side. We had no information about other forces than our platoon in the hill and that leads to the lack of communication between GCT units.

At last day we learned that we could have been calling Para in to help, if we only would have had some kind of command center to coordinate things. We were supposed to be Global Counter Terrorism force but we had no single commander and no communication about other forces. I had thought that BE would have put command center with BE organizers or players overseeing the command and the planning. This was definitely not an organized attacking force planning to liberate anything. We were out manned, out gunned and non-organized to capture and hold anything larger than small hill. BE should have been faster to react to the problem and possibly even move some of the forces from other side to balance the forces. I know it would have been drastic and hard to accomplish, but it would have been possible even in LARP style with renegade force switching sides.

In short.
The game was a disappointment as BE had not organized the command chain properly. The game area and CP's were not thought after properly (north south game with bases just nort of CP-1 and West of CP-4 would have been much better with more chance to uses vehicles the right way and not drive off-game areas all the time). The balance of the teams were way off and we saw no effort from BE to fix that after game start.
Organizing a game is more than just getting water and toilets. There should have been at least 50 game masters on duty. With a game master on vicinity of each CP and others moving around. That way players would have gotten used to seeing GM's and not worry about artillery when they see GM.

Yes, I have organized games before and no, I have not organized games of this size. Still the basics are always the same. Logistics are important, but there are more to it.

Thanks for the game.

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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by beast » 01 Jul 2015, 11:27

Parzi wrote:
L4gi wrote:
Sorner wrote:- Some is complaining about that the GCT HQ was a mess and that people either just sat around doing nothing or went roque. I saw this too but not even close to the same amount and some other people in here. As soon as we returned from a mission then we usually started looking for a new one - and this often ended up with us talking with Psy-ops, Sappers and some mech-inf to find a new spot to attack in force. We took the plan and talked with the HQ and 9 out of 10 times we got the go for the mission. So even though HQ didnt always have a mission people should think out of the box and bring some suggestions - after all its us driving and walking around in the area..
What is this GCT HQ? As far as I know, there was no GCT HQ. If youre talking about the big faded tent near the back of the camp, that was the Para Inf HQ. That might be one of the reasons why you might think the HQ didnt work. Something that doesnt exist cant really work, can it? :P

This is probably what caused great confusion amongs gct players. GCT did not have any HQ that commanded the whole GCT. GCT only had the separate unit commanders like sapper, infantry, mortar etc.

Gamemaster Troll was supposed to be the supreme GCT commander but he usually was not around the base, actually GCT camp did not have a GM around most of the game. The big "HQ" tent was in fact a gathering place for all the unit commanders, a place where we could work. The table with computers was ParaInf TOC (tactical operations center) and that was manned by ParaInf officers. So usually when ppl came to the "HQ" tent they met ParaInf officers. Ofcourse we tried to help the other units as much as we could. Sometimes we gave missions, intel and other stuff. Also sometimes we needed to tell people that hey your unit commander is not here but you can find him from tent X. Our main priority was to provide missions and support to our own unit that was ParaInf but we also did this for other units also when we had the time.

I know this sucks and is confusing but BE wanted that GCT does not have a player in role of a supreme commander. So we tried as best as we could to get things organised. Before the game idea was that i would had ParaInf HQ setup its own HQ in our own sleeping tents but that would have led to situation that no reckonisable HQ would be in the whole GCT base.

Well anyway i will try to make ParaInf debrief soon and maybe it clears the picture for some people.
I am honestly speechless.
How it can be possible not to have a supreme commander?
How companies were supposed to cooperate?
Who was supposed to assign missions?

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B10 Final Strike -> 3° Ranger Archer 4
B11 Iron Walls -> SFODU Hotel 9
B12 Lords of War -> CGT Ranger Bravo 4
B13 Siege of Krasnovo -> CGT Ranger
B14 Black Gold -> Ranger
B15 Thunder Run -> FINBAT wolverine 8

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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by L4gi » 01 Jul 2015, 11:44

Gamemasters...
B7 / B8 / B9 / B10 / B11 / B12 / B13 / B14 / B15 / B16 / B17

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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by diamid » 01 Jul 2015, 11:47

What we did in IKAROS was that all Military Commanders: Infantry, Mech and Recon was set as equal, satt around the same table and was allowed to task soldiers cross all three groups. Or GM was very active, but mostly he made sure we followed the red line and did not do anything stupid. It made it very easy to task large groups, and that players allways found at least one Commander, incase the others where dead or off-game. CoyCom's was allways welcome to all meetings and to come with ideeas. They where also given alot of freedom in the field.
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We will come with a joint feedback later.
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by Verage » 01 Jul 2015, 14:37

I was with the Cerberus First platoon.
It was my first berget and boy oh boy it was fun!

The platoon we played in was great!
Valkyries and Red Scropions, it was awesome.

The area.
Härnösand is just beautifull to play on. We guys from belgium got areas to play on that are not bigger than Ikaros main base. The terrain is hard but perfect.

Logistics
No complaints at all. Everything you needed was there.
The girls at the kiosk were very good for morale, they were dancing in there little house.

Krasnovo & Civilians
The town was just perfect, houses, civilians, ...
We never stayed long in the town but you could see that it took a lot of hard work to put it toghether.

Gameplay
We started slow, packing for 3 days, packing for 24 days, no wait, pack for 12 hours.
Oh, pack for 3 days anyway... but hey, thats all part of the game.
If command tells us what to do, you just do it an embrace the suck.

We were started our walk to the GCT base on friday at 0500.
It was sad to see all the vehicules being destroyed before they entered the base.
All part of the game. With the remaining forces we pushed and pushed and pushed!

We got one mission after the other, so we always knew what to do.

The command in Ikaros was very good. The information came down very good and we were always good informed.
So kudos for that!

The artillery was a great extra, funny how fast people get up an running for cover.

I got captured by GCT, guys come on...
I could have had al kind of stuff on me. I do not know who questioned and searched me.
The roleplaying in Ikaros base was really great. I just got knifekilled in the woods :p
BAVS
Did not use BAVS
But from what i heard about it, the reload time is very fast.
The LAWMAKER was a better system. You had to fold it in en out again to fire.

Conclution
I will be back next year!

Running arround during baseassault in my longjohns, yelling at people to get the wounded together so we don't loose to many medics. Attacking GCT main base, Sleeping and eating when we had the time, New awesome friends, getting hammered by arti, Running for cover, and so much more.

Thanks guys!

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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by Klimkuz » 03 Jul 2015, 18:28

Have mixed feelings after this game.

First of all, this year there were retards in red camp that cut down trees and even used a chainsaw. This is forbidden in Sweden, and not only they ruin our nature (that I'm sure they don't do at home) plus it creates problems to airsofters in Sweden. So hope BE crew will do some major ass kicking.

Organization was very bad this year. One guy in our team payed for transit and was forgotten, crew didn't provide any phone. Fortunately for him he managed to get to check in. But if you take money, then be sure to do your part.
Some of our friends ordered sleeping places in BE tents that were not provided, it was just turn of luck that they had their own tents just in case.
In general was a getting a feeling like I'm bothering BE crew, by showing up to the game, chroning a gun and taking there time.

Commanders was also of no good. At best we had only morning order, then HQ had only one respond "no orders, stand by". 4 days of standing by for people who traveled over a thousand kilometers was very disappointing. Also where were all the blue? It was just few times when we crossed 4-6 man teams.
Maybe HQ had some intense brain game, but they sure as hell were no generals (sorry guys), at least last year HQ was doing some action and grate battles, while this year it was a trench war (and as far as I understand on both sides). Base protection? Patrols? Nope, never herd of it. I think such boredom resulted in teams starting to play their own game.

So what managed to save the day in the end? Players. This was not total disaster just because of greate people on both sides, greate chats and laughs and new friends. But is it worth all the costs? Maybe, but we and everyone I know are very skeptical about next year.
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by Qwerty » 03 Jul 2015, 19:28

Klimkuz wrote: First of all, this year there were retards in red camp that cut down trees and even used a chainsaw. This is forbidden in Sweden, and not only they ruin our nature (that I'm sure they don't do at home) plus it creates problems to airsofters in Sweden. So hope BE crew will do some major ass kicking.
I noticed this also in blue camp. Some idiots cut down multiple trees to make walls to cover their tents. Seriously guys, you make serious damage to environment and actions like that would cause and has been caused losing game areas.
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by diamid » 03 Jul 2015, 21:16

Klimkuz wrote: Commanders was also of no good. At best we had only morning order, then HQ had only one respond "no orders, stand by". 4 days of standing by for people who traveled over a thousand kilometers was very disappointing. Also where were all the blue? It was just few times when we crossed 4-6 man teams.
Maybe HQ had some intense brain game, but they sure as hell were no generals (sorry guys), at least last year HQ was doing some action and grate battles, while this year it was a trench war (and as far as I understand on both sides). Base protection? Patrols? Nope, never herd of it. I think such boredom resulted in teams starting to play their own game.
Hi Klimkuz.

Sorry to hear you had a bad experience. From your text I understand you where on the red team (Ikaros). Where you Infantry, Mech or Recon? Or part of the police?

I can only answer for the "military" side of Ikaros. Since Inf, Mech and Recon had one HQ. Police was in the city, and had its own HQ.

Yes, it was hard to give missions this year since we had non... There where no BE given missions. Only capture CP points and fight the enemy. Something that was a problem as well, as we had large amount of the map most of the time and little there was litle movment from GCT forces for time to time. And we did not want to send people to CP points just to sit around hours at an end without anything happen. We even at one point made up some mission on our own.

But everyone that wanted to do something and stopped by the HQ and asked got something. Only two exceptions where BE ask us not to hold back. I can't remember saying "no mission,stand by" one single time.

Base defence is hard to organise since no one wants to, and we can't force people. It's and Airsoft game. But on the 2nd day we had patrols and a basedefence in place. Mostly by injured players that did not want to go home.

But again. I am sorry your team had a bad time. If you where part of the military side of IKAROS please feel free to send me a PM with pointers to what we can do better.

PS: BE found the tree cutters. What happens to them is something BE have to answer to.
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by Tiger_1 » 03 Jul 2015, 22:48

But do you need missions from Berget to send people out? One of the main points command has had before is that to much Berget control is not good. If you have a overall plan, and objective (as is required for any operation to make sense) you deploy troops based on that, and then adapt to missions that might or might not turn up. Not saying HQ for IKAROS was bad, as I mostly had stuff to do all the time. But a more joined op plan for all units would perhaps have given all players a feeling that they are part of a bigger plan.
From reading blue feedback we seemed to have had a better hq then they did, and that is kind of unfair, as they were outnumbered to start with. Berget needs to look at what GM supports what side, and try to balance games earlier. Is it time to start a new timeline? And switch some camo around again? To try and break up the NATO/NAF/GTC guys and the POLDAVIAN/RAVENS/IKAROS gang? Would still suggest sticking to two main factions.
"go to your God like a soldier!"

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