Debriefing Berget 13.

Feedback and debriefings from Berget 13
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Arradin
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by Arradin » 03 Jul 2015, 23:06

Tiger_1 wrote:But do you need missions from Berget to send people out? One of the main points command has had before is that to much Berget control is not good. If you have a overall plan, and objective (as is required for any operation to make sense) you deploy troops based on that, and then adapt to missions that might or might not turn up. Not saying HQ for IKAROS was bad, as I mostly had stuff to do all the time. But a more joined op plan for all units would perhaps have given all players a feeling that they are part of a bigger plan.
From reading blue feedback we seemed to have had a better hq then they did, and that is kind of unfair, as they were outnumbered to start with. Berget needs to look at what GM supports what side, and try to balance games earlier. Is it time to start a new timeline? And switch some camo around again? To try and break up the NATO/NAF/GTC guys and the POLDAVIAN/RAVENS/IKAROS gang? Would still suggest sticking to two main factions.
I agree with what you say, but the FACT remains that MANY people feel that they didnt have enough missions. If commanders were the ones to blame, then look into how to make it not happen next year.
If GMs is to blame, then people need to provite that specific feedback so it can be adressed next year.

I would hate to see commanders not getting the chanse to be commander next year again ( should they want to ) because "people" generally think commanders did a bad job.

If commanders felt that they didnt have any mission except CP Duty to give out, then YES, we need more BE provided missions and scenarios.

Examples:

- One helicopter(trucks) has crashed during extraction/insertion. Find them and regroup.
- Find XX in YY ( Hostile area )


Personally i think its a BAD idea to let Commanders do all the commanding, BE is needed to make sure that there are scenarios and missions that crash together with other missions.
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by wormbyte » 03 Jul 2015, 23:46

Tiger_1 wrote:Is it time to start a new timeline? And switch some camo around again? To try and break up the NATO/NAF/GTC guys and the POLDAVIAN/RAVENS/IKAROS gang? Would still suggest sticking to two main factions.
Sounds like a very good mate.
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by L4gi » 03 Jul 2015, 23:50

Tiger_1 wrote:Is it time to start a new timeline? And switch some camo around again? To try and break up the NATO/NAF/GTC guys and the POLDAVIAN/RAVENS/IKAROS gang? Would still suggest sticking to two main factions.
This times a million. Same guys on same sides year after year, and the situation has just deteriorated to what it was this year.
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by diamid » 04 Jul 2015, 00:47

To Arradin and Tiger_1.

We tried as best as we could to push people out, and like I wrote, at times actually made up missions.
But can only do it to a certain degree. BE missions that would have made sure Red and Blue forces had meet would have made it easier. It ensures that players will not have walked across the map for nothing. AND most important, this is airsoft... we have everything between chairsofters to Hardcore Milsim groups. Cant push people to go guard a CP for 6+ hrs. (some you can.. but still aint good)

Arradin wrote:
"Personally I think its a BAD idea to let Commanders do all the commanding, BE is needed to make sure that there are scenarios and missions that crash together with other missions."

This is something I have told our GM. There is no problem for Player-Commanders to do all the Commanding. But when you have a situation like what happened at one point during this game, that there is a complete standstill... a BE mission to say, pick the black box of a crashed plane, where both sides are ask to go do the same. Ensuring a clash, would be appreciated. (A small spark, to give the game a small kick). Or that BE 4-Star General, takes over, if just for a short time, to get the game rolling again.

There is a nice thin balance between to much BE control, and to little... Just need to find it. This year I was very happy with our in HQ GM. I agree with the balancing... it was not good that there was a large number gap between red and blue forces.

PS! I do appreciate the feedback, both good and bad. Only way I get better ;)
Last edited by diamid on 04 Jul 2015, 00:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by vinni » 04 Jul 2015, 00:50

Tiger_1 wrote:But do you need missions from Berget to send people out? One of the main points command has had before is that to much Berget control is not good. If you have a overall plan, and objective (as is required for any operation to make sense) you deploy troops based on that, and then adapt to missions that might or might not turn up. Not saying HQ for IKAROS was bad, as I mostly had stuff to do all the time. But a more joined op plan for all units would perhaps have given all players a feeling that they are part of a bigger plan.
From reading blue feedback we seemed to have had a better hq then they did, and that is kind of unfair, as they were outnumbered to start with. Berget needs to look at what GM supports what side, and try to balance games earlier. Is it time to start a new timeline? And switch some camo around again? To try and break up the NATO/NAF/GTC guys and the POLDAVIAN/RAVENS/IKAROS gang? Would still suggest sticking to two main factions.
On the topic of missions: Yes and no. If we were to send out troops on Friday afternoon, the only things that we could have them do was a) take and/or guard a point (mostly guard, very little take) or b) attack GCT base. We did neither because we decided it would be unfair towards the GCT, so we held back in order to let the blues take points up until North-South 53 grid line and then resume operations. Given the fact that this happened slow as hell, we could not risk sending out more troops on actual combat missions without the risk of breaking the game.

The way the HQs were organised was completely the commanders' decision and mutual cooperation, although BE could have poked them a little bit.

As for camouflages, it would be interesting to switch the schemes around for next year and see who chooses teams for the company and who chooses based on the camo.
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by spin_t » 04 Jul 2015, 06:22

After Berget 8 who was a fantastic game,we are keep on returning every year waiting to have the same great game experience.
What we had was a smaller or bigger disappointment every year.
So in the end looks like Berget 8 was an accident and B.Crew is not really up to the task of managing a such number of players.
I'm not saying this Berget was the worst but far away from what you expect from an organizer with more than 10 years experience.
So my team will give a break next year to this event,looks like is not worth the money and time,there are other games in Europe worth spending money.
Some will say now "yeah but only on Berget you could have 1500 people in game "...well,i did not feel like those people are there this year,and other years.
Truly sad to see a fantastic area and a lot of nice people from around the world getting disappointed every year...
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by Metatrone » 04 Jul 2015, 14:27

AND most important, this is airsoft... we have everything between chairsofters to Hardcore Milsim groups. Cant push people to go guard a CP for 6+ hrs. (some you can.. but still aint good)
I hear what you are saying and can have some understanding. But...Given what Berget is and what it claim to be (ie military structure, chain of command etc etc) isn´t this something that people ought to expect. As long as people know W H Y they are doing something, most tend to be alright with it (generally speaking). My platoon were ordered to defend CP 11 during Wednesday evening while the "rest" of GCT attempted to capture CP 10 trough the entire evening and night. None had any real issues with that even if we didn´t see any real action for the entire evening/night since there was an understanding that the TEAM could not push against CP 10 if we didn´t hold CP 11. But perhaps it is a question of mentality, if one is prepared to take on certain tasks for the "greater" good?

True, this was my first Berget (so who am I to speak), but I had expected and was fully prepared that the game would involve guard-duty and defending captured terrain. Given that I guess that people travel to Berget is partly because of its scale and the scenario(s), shouldn´t people be prepared that it will differ from a "Sunday-game"?
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by wormbyte » 04 Jul 2015, 15:23

I totally agree Metatrone.

Some will say that Berget is not MilSim. I beg to differ. When I see the command structure in place, and the efforts the commanders go to in their HQ's when doing mission planning, then it is MilSim.

With nearly a thousand players you need structure and control. You can not have a skirmish type approach on that scale, it will turn in to a cluster-f**k.

But with a 1000 players then you know there is a percentage of players that do not know what they are buying in to.

Bottomline, whether you treat it as MilSim or not, Berget is a team game. You don't find members of a football team all doing there own thing. Football is about scoring more goals then the opposition, but you don't find defenders getting bored, giving up there positions so they can have a shot at the goal.....because "that's where the fun is". Everyone has a part to play.

Hopefully all the units get to cycle around so that everyone has some action, but everyone shares the responsibility of some of the less interesting work.

But a game of this scale, over a 3 day duration will have periods of no action. It can not be avoided.

But everyone needs to carefully read their unit description when signing up because that does give a hint of what they can expect.

One piece of advise I would give to future commander is....find out about your guys. Use a survey tool such a surveymonkey.com to find out the types of players you have. I have done this before to find out what level of MilSim they enjoy, whether they are order Berget supplied meals, and whether they are bring their own tents etc.
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by diamid » 04 Jul 2015, 16:07

A attempt on this was done. To categories milsim players, larpers, speedball etc etc. To give the right tasks to the right guys. But got victim of lack of response. Think in the end we had info on 60%. But have noted the stuff you guys are saying behind my ear.

PS: Had a team that signed up as hardcore milsim, ready for it all. But where complete destroy after first day. And told their CoyCom they where suprised how heavy it was compared to their normal Sunday game. And their task the first day was not hard compare to the others in Infantry. So, not always people now their own limits or what Berget can bring.
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by wormbyte » 04 Jul 2015, 16:16

diamid wrote:PS: Had a team that signed up as hardcore milsim, ready for it all. But where complete destroy after first day. And told their CoyCom they where suprised how heavy it was compared to their normal Sunday game. And their task the first day was not hard compare to the others in Infantry. So, not always people now their own limits or what Berget can bring.
That's a very good point.
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by Lurch » 05 Jul 2015, 15:33

hello and embrace the suck i was informed that i should bleed out little here.

before i start i wanna thank berget crew for making these games and its hard to manage these games every year. We have also families etc so its totally understandable.
Great hail to all GCT players we fought hard againts overwhelming odds...in and off game odds in this point :/

ok so here it goes.

the area:
i liked the area although mountain climping sucks. my fault im fat and always carry too much gear :)
only thing bothered me was that everything seemed to be liiiiittle too close to horse stables and fields. cos i heard there was an incident that players went too close to field and literaly the owner had start to push players and say that i also have a gun (and he went to get it).
just hope that there was no bad problem to berget crew about this. Yes people where also informed that do not go close to the fields etc.

logictics:
well well....gsus last year after game start didnt see almost any cars....now. Cars everywhere

krasnovo and civilians:
biiiiiiiig plus extremely awsome city and civilians acting really good.

then to the POO.

well well i have to say my expectation where low even before the game. the activity and information sucked.
psy-ops was immediatly put under the management of 1th infantry before even getting missions. due the fact that there was supposed to be only 15 of us.
was waiting more information loong time that is there anything else to know that yup you are called psyops and you take care of civilians.
i was told i cant attend to the meetings before the game cos my infantry commander was supposed to tell me missions.

So we come to check in like 00.30 many guys are waiting there cos they came after 00.00 which was the time checkin closes. we where supposed to come earlier but when you have a cool kick ass 50s hippie buss you need to take breakes.
berget pages didnt have any phone number so we could not call.
we where sleeping in the cars for 2-3 hours untill someone from finnish guys game even later and knew where is our base.
there where some guys that went to checkout that where is the base but turned around cos the signs that said "no pre-game scouting allowed" so we just didnt go there. although our base was near.
finally we got to base put up the tent cos we knew morning is going to rain.

morning starts i gear up and head to HQ tent to get orders.
we sit down have nice meeting and everybody gets orders. then i turn in to our commander and he askes me "so what is your mission"
GOD ALMIGHTY....he is the one that i have been waiting to contact and tell me the orders.
order was....well infantry is holding these spots you can go there if you WANT. just follow our guys.

So during the whole game we didnt get any mission at all mostly sitting in base. one interesting mission go get the laptop. which in the end became the mission for all units.

we could not interigate anyone we didnt ever get truthserum
we could not get civilians to do anything cos we didnt get any resources no money no nothing to give them.
we was told we can give them guns meaning the players get to use their own guns.
this pointed out to be stupid also cos civilians informed that they would need a token that the give to GM that it would be the permission. NOP NO TOKENS i had to ask a driver GM to write a note about that so we could get this show started.

giving guns to civilians was stupid why?? because we didnt give them any money and sappers freaking destroyed civilians water supply and radio communication.
so what ever happened to "we are here to help you" :)
so of course the civilians though that ikaros is the liberator.

during all this time i had no connection to HQ tent absolutely no connection.
i had to wake up for morning meetings but could not go in. it was for bigger commanders. then i wait and wait. to get no orders at all.
i was told the berget cellular phones are only for commanders didnt get one. also berget radio i was told it was for commanders didnt enclude me.
we had nice whatssapp messaging group....got the information 3 day that i was supposed to have my own phone with internet during the game. didnt ever get this information.
so i asked my friends in coms that give some number to HQ tent so i can send atleast some info.
whole game i was using my own phone for connection and i little fear about the forth coming phonebill.

the only way that we got some gaming was that my unit was seperated and we where going on missions with mechanized. then the fun started.

i thank for all psyops guys for patience and sorry for having no information and nothing to do.

and to whom this info belongs to: why was psy-ops not informed pregame or ingame about the priority of the "woman in black". that seemed to be our only actual mission. i didnt get this info untill the girl game of game to our base why the duck are you shooting me. didnt you get the information pre game.
so i had to stand mouth open and tell "i dont know anything your talking about"

vehicles, cars and mobiles.
too much or not too much. there should be eighter balance limit or more bavs. i was told ikaros had 40 cars and GCT had what 17 and from the beginning berget crew was about to ban the usage of some due the license plate.
gct also had only 3bavs in the beginning.
i have to say its awsome that they are there but sitting in the ditch many hours cos you cant do anything is long run boring.


GM
well you had your hands cut out and well ikaros was overwhelming. You can not be held responsibly for everything. keep up the work your doing your best.
special thanks to dragons troll :*

summary:
bad weather
information failure
good guys
good new friends
next year we know better

best regards supreme leader of psy ops unit....the unit so specops it literaly didnt even exicts.
let the power of airsoft compel you

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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by Arradin » 05 Jul 2015, 16:08

Lurch wrote: summary:
bad weather
Wait, What? :D bad weather? it was awesome!

On a more serious note, the part that noone got any money until like the second or third day was really really REALLY bad.

Most of us civilians had missions which involved getting money in some way ( Rebuilding the city after all ) , but we also quickly realised that noone had any money to give us, and none of the different factions were informed about the different game props they could get for us ( Gun token, BE Medical Supplies etc etc )
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by Lurch » 05 Jul 2015, 16:41

Arradin wrote:
Lurch wrote: summary:
bad weather
none of the different factions were informed about the different game props they could get for us ( Gun token, BE Medical Supplies etc etc )
ehem we knew about those but didnt have any.
Gun tokens: i thought that we cant give them untill we have secured the armory plus anyway we didnt get tokens.
no prop medical supplies but we gave you medic bandages.
other supplies aaam no we just gave you bigga bombs :) that infamous red volvo dude was supposed to blow stuff.....
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by Jack Scarecrow » 05 Jul 2015, 18:25

I guess berget crew just forgot about us and giving us the props. I was promised a bit of money by berget admin but i didn´t get any at checkin and when i asked about it they said i would ''probably'' get from the HQ before game start. Well no one was given money and the game begin and we headed to Krasnovo where we couldn´t do much since no one had any money. After making a tab in the bar and patiance running out i finnaly went to ask Mr. Judge for money and i am pretty sure he gave me the only money he had (1000). So then atleast i had money but i was the only one.
I was unable to split it into smaller bills because the bar did not have change and the bank wouldn´t be open till next day.
Day 2 arrives and Hades Police were gonna riot because they did not get ''paid''. I asked the admin again for money and after awhile it finally arrived and i could start paying people for their work.

So then i had money and things were great but i am not sure about the others in HP if they got some money handout aswell. Very bad that Psy-ops in GTC were given 0.

I really think people who need money ingame should been given at checkin. Like we were last year. And other props that were supposed to be going around with the civilians.

____

I was supposed to be a mission for the GCT and even asked if i should solve it myself by giving the paper to friends in there to make sure it would get to their commander and Psy-Ops. However the admin said he would do it but when i asked him at d2 he said he ''forgot''. I had a copy of the mission with me just in case and he said i should give it to a captured GCT guy so he could deliver it wich i did. Whatever happened to that guy and the information paper i do not know :(

So well GCT had no information about me whatsoever and therefor wasn´t even looking for me. And that was the biggest dissapointment for me. Spending the entire game unarmed walking around playing my role just to get to know that they don´t even know what or who i am and that they were supposed to find me.
That means even if i had run into GCT while out on my small missions they would have just killed me and ignored me. Wich they also did at saturday but well no one cares the last day it seems. So by then i gave up completly aswell and went to get my gun (1h till game ended tho).

I had quite a good story going on. Sending alive prisoners back to GCT both ones who wouldn´t remember what happened to them but also ones who could have told information about me such as wich house was mine, what i do, how i look like, the fact that i was unarmed but had bodyguards etc.
Also expected civilians to sell information about me but since Psy-Ops had no money (or info about me) they couldn´t ask the civilians at all.
The lack of the base information made it pointless it seems. Hard to be a mission when the persons who got the mission don´t even know..... :(

Even when i went all way to enemy base myself things went badly. The larp went to hell since they had no idea who i was or what to do about me so eventually we just decided to **** it and to let me go due to the lack of information.

As Dr. Black is still around i will try make him fit into next year´s story and this time i will make sure the ''psy-ops'' unit get the information they were supposed to have.
(Or if Dr. Black isn´t possible i guess i will have to make a simular character).
But atleast if i get to continue my story as Dr. Black i wont be sad for being totaly forgotten this year :cry: .
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Re: Debriefing Berget 13.

Post by beast » 05 Jul 2015, 19:13

Bad weahter?

The best since almost 4 years.

:)
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B10 Final Strike -> 3° Ranger Archer 4
B11 Iron Walls -> SFODU Hotel 9
B12 Lords of War -> CGT Ranger Bravo 4
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B15 Thunder Run -> FINBAT wolverine 8

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