three things to consider for the Berget Crew.

Feedback e debriefings from Berget 7.
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Brujo
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Post by Brujo » 08 Jul 2009, 07:32

Kartoon wrote:I think it would hardly be of anyones interest or benefit to further complicate the relations between the set factions in the game, let alone bring a new one in to the game and not even preset their take on the other factions but let them come up with their own game plans.
There are 1300 players, each one looking for a contribution into the game. I think you are totally wrong with your above statement, every player is actually looking to complicate things, to be unique, to shift the tide, maybe... right or wrong, for game-masters to decide...
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Post by Brujo » 08 Jul 2009, 07:41

Geboren wrote:Maybe the fact is that small units or little squads that come to Berget are not well briefed with the ROE of being NATO.
LARP element this year was a trial, GM's did not know how it would be accepted or how people would live with that. I give the crew credit for trying out something new, many players found new challenges in the LARP side of the story. NATO command or any other command for the fact was not briefed on the situation much more than it was in the rules (which every single player should have read! :? ), because there was nothing. There were means to do it and the plot. What happened in Bashir city was not controlled by the GM's and everything that happened needed to be communicated with the faction HQ through agents of that colour in Bashir. I believe Tystnad took care of it with NATO HQ.
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Post by hezi » 08 Jul 2009, 11:35

guys,
this is an AirSoft game although in a large scale, but it is still a game
you can expect units to go AWOL form their command, you can expect confusion and disorder in the battle filed, friendly fire from the same unit on each other, commands from HQ that are not understood and their units are doing the opposite from what HQ ordered, HQ don't have the information on the designated attack point.
there are parts in Berget Event that are MILSIM and LARP,
every one of them happened in one time or more at the game.

if you establish a court-martial this is a part of LARP,
some of the coming players are Airsofters and not into LARP.
BE should consider that too.
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Post by Kaiser » 08 Jul 2009, 13:03

Well... the rogue guys roleplayed the Three Kings movie!
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Post by Kartoon » 08 Jul 2009, 13:38

Brujo wrote:
Kartoon wrote:I think it would hardly be of anyones interest or benefit to further complicate the relations between the set factions in the game, let alone bring a new one in to the game and not even preset their take on the other factions but let them come up with their own game plans.
There are 1300 players, each one looking for a contribution into the game. I think you are totally wrong with your above statement, every player is actually looking to complicate things, to be unique, to shift the tide, maybe... right or wrong, for game-masters to decide...
I fail to understand your point of view. Are you saying that having 1/2 of the players go rogue with their own little separate armband without any command structure would make a good game? Don't be offended by my exaggeration.

I was merely saying that letting everybody freely decide if they go rogue or not just by changing their armband to a deserters one sounds to me like a bad idea.
In the two berget games I've attended I've had lots of feedback from my ingame subjects that the clearer the ROE between factions are the more they have enjoyed the game. No matter how much the commanding officers enjoy the deal making with officers from the opposing forces their subjects often feel left out thus having a lesser game experience. I like the fact that at times it might be the time to cooperate with another faction for a mutual interest, but I cant imagine a game where the relations are left for the players to fully and freely decide.

As you said, "every player is actually looking to complicate things, to be unique, to shift the tide". The key is to let them do that in a way that fits the picture. If for example Nato forces start randomly molesting civilians just to rock the boat for their personal amusement it's all going south. Way south.

People need rules. People need guidelines. Except me. I don't make mistakes, not in life or airsoft. :D
Last edited by Kartoon on 08 Jul 2009, 15:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by motorhead » 08 Jul 2009, 14:13

Brujo wrote: There are 1300 players, each one looking for a contribution into the game. I think you are totally wrong with your above statement, every player is actually looking to complicate things, to be unique, to shift the tide, maybe... right or wrong, for game-masters to decide...
More irony or just plain game-structure torpedoing? The ingame NATO mandate was typically non-UN (conventional UN peacekeeping), more about military controlling key strategic points and facilitate democratic elections in Bashir.

One key element there according to game rules was the complicating element of protecting civilians.

Quote:
"NATO
NATO is on full alert in staging areas along the Liburania border. The mission is to counter any hostility between the fractions within the nation. The Air force is on standby to support the infantry and mechanized units.

Primary missions
Engaging hostile forces NATO are instructed to assault bases, large gatherings of hostiles and to disable all weapon systems to effectively cripple their offensive capabilities and stop them from further aggression.
To make a permanent dent against these warlords, NATO needs to destroy their means of income.

Civilians in Bashir-City must be protected to keep the global opinion in favour of the operation. Failure in doing this can result in funds being retracted."

There's no way this can be roleplayed ingame if people start swarming Bashir on their own from that faction. In fact they're absolutely ruining gameplay for those staying in character and doing their roleplay as BE configured the game.

If complicating the game for others is "Berget-game-structure" this airsoft game is moving heavily towards LARP as main theme. And as some others have said - LARP is not every airsofter's piece of cake.
I know for certain that many Norwegian airsofters plan to avoid Berget in the future if that is the case.
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B7: NATO S6 - smoke signal operator
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Post by Brujo » 08 Jul 2009, 15:55

Motor, it's my ironic view that has a foundation in experience :)
I am definately not saying this is good for the game...

"Civilians in Bashir-City must be protected to keep the global opinion in favour of the operation."
This is it, all those NATO players who killed unarmed civilians were acting against Berget rules and should be crucified or something equally civilised.

Ooh, I also have a corpse I need to dig out...
Myself and Luc were entering BC as unarmed civilians (official BE white-green armband) and got stopped and searched by the indians. I talked briefly to "max violence" Ian (saying hello, kisses and such) when he instructed one of his soldiers to kill my unarmed friend... because he was sure we were not really civilians. His soldier advised him it would be breaking of the rules since we were unarmed and Luc was actually already in Bashir... so the cheater-wannabe was unhappy but obeyed nevertheless :D
I say we ban Ian from Berget! :P (joke, Ian will understand it)
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Post by Tiger_1 » 08 Jul 2009, 17:16

Yes NATO orders said no NATO tropps were to hang around Bashir city. For a very good reason. In real life you would not have NATO tropps R&R'ing in a city they were fighting around 4 hours before, this has to do with security for you own forces (one of the reasons I asked the question about Bashir and it's purpose before the game, as I knew nato would lose out on a lot of the stuff going on there). If we were to stick to our ingame mandate, we could not have nato soldiers running around casinoes and broth...I mean church.
I am sure a lot of NATO soldiers found this a bit frustrating, and I understand them, but that was part of the down side of being NATO. And it seems a lot of you got to see the bikini carwash anyway (I did not even see bashir until the beerparty) ;)
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Post by motorhead » 08 Jul 2009, 20:06

Hmm. In reality a civilian LARP element like Bashir contributes to making Berget more advanced and multi-level as a game concept. However, this year also proved that faction rules and their ingame mandates affect player satisfaction.

The average airsofter may or may not have some military experience and knowledge, but let's face it; most of us kit up with multiple AEG's, combat vests and different uniforms when we pack our luggage for Berget.

Now we must also prepare for another dimension - LARP and crossover roleplay. That element obviously caught many ingame NATO folks by surprise this year.

The LARP-capable airsofter may hereafter don his/her shorts, hawaii shirt and Ray-Ban's and flash his/her toothpaste grin and enjoy ingame roleplay in the game city. With this knowledge we can prepare better for next time - if Berget also contains an ingame rp city next year.

But let's face it: We must never forget that ingame diplomacy and civilian intrigue must perform within a short 4-day timespan. Infiltration games and valuable intel trading adds an interesting dimension, but this must also be balanced aginst the average airsofter's craving for more classical BB'related airsoft activities. This balance was proven very difficult at B7 and Friday night the game was completely out of control.

Not exactly the way this game was set up and ingame NATO roleplay was impaired/destroyed by rogue elements backstabbing their own unit. Such incidents must be handled better via more precise faction recruitment, more precise faction mandates and better player information next time. Otherwise this years mass-psychology mechanisms may repeat and the game derail again as B7 friday night proved.

If LARP-style-backstabbing-treason is becoming "the Berget storyline" - then goodbye Berget from me and many others. Then I'd rather seek other airsoft games abroad. I'm far from alone on thinking so after this year here in Norway. Yes, it's just a game - but portraying the most cynical and destructive sides of humankind is not my piece of cake and not why I play airsoft. I want unit cameraderie, good com, tactics and functional milsim unit gameplay. Your mileage may vary.

Just my tuppence worth :)
Last edited by motorhead on 09 Jul 2009, 00:59, edited 1 time in total.
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B7: NATO S6 - smoke signal operator
B8: Pol. 3rd Mount. S6/Liaison - ditto
B9: Pol. 3rd Mount. Com dude - ditto
B10: On leave
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Post by MrMedic » 08 Jul 2009, 22:51

I think Motörhead is right.

There are a lot of LARP games around, but there is only one Berget. Berget is an airsoft game with elements of roleplaying, not the other way around.
Lets not turn Berget into a free for all backstabbing competition.

I for one would really have liked to see more full taskforce combat manouvres, such as all of NATO attacking all of Mercs + Milos + whoever wants to join in.

There are very few opportunities in life to partake in a 1000+ airsoft player shootout. With ingame tanks. And then even the helicopter would have been enjoyable.

If this means having BE crew go in and steer things to get such a fight set up then so be it. Bigger and better airsoft at the cost of freedom of choice in roleplaying? Yes thank you. Any day. Most of the people at Berget are "just grunts", they follow orders and trust those orders to give them the most fun possible.

So how to ensure that the orders do just that? Roleplaying is one way, but is the roleplaying really 100% focused on "will this give everyone a better game experience"? I doubt it. Orders from berget crew are. The missions we got from BE this year were varied, challenging and fun. I would much rather see more of that than have a 100% dynamic storyline.

Let there be "Orders from European Nato HQ" specifying the time and place of the assault and "Confirmed intel from hitherto unknown moles within NATO" that leaks the information to all the other HQ's.

Do this two or three times during the event and then let everyone get on with their skulking about doing small missions in between.

I'm not saying that we should cut out the roleplaying entirelly, but focus should still be on maximum amount of excitement and fun for the largest possible number of players.

I (and many others with me) want BIG FIGHTS! And games that do not get cut off several hours too early.

Just my two öre.

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Post by hezi » 08 Jul 2009, 23:11

Amen for that +1
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Post by Majk » 08 Jul 2009, 23:24

Please stay on topic to make our evaluation easier.

I'll create an new topic: "Action vs LARP"
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Post by Lex » 08 Jul 2009, 23:34

+1 to "less roleplay - more fight". It's airsoft, roleplay games - other floor.

edit
ps: ops, sorry.

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Post by Tystnad » 08 Jul 2009, 23:37

Please note that its Berget, not an airsoftgame. Berget has gone way beyond being "airsoft", and now incorporates bits of everything; large scale skirmish, LARP for some/most factions and players, MilSim for the hardcores and a hugeass get-together for likeminded people from all over the world. Thats my two cents.

I cant really think of anything negative about the game at this stage. The one thing I'd really want BE to consider, is to not make the game bigger. 1300 people is well enough for the stage as it is, expanding that number to above 2000 will only ruin the current setup. Wait for it to grow a little more on its own, like it has done from B5 to the current thing. Things are getting better every year, so I know you guys listen what we, the players, have to say. Good job all over, if you ask me.
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Post by Panzergraf » 09 Jul 2009, 04:03

It's past 03:30 and I feel like ranting.
Lex wrote:+1 to "less roleplay - more fight". It's airsoft, roleplay games - other floor.

edit
ps: ops, sorry.
(and to Tystnad as well)

It is an airsoft game.
Airsoft can be many things, but if it is a game and involves airsoft replicas, it is an airsoft game. No matter if it is speedball in red jerseys and inflatable bunkers or if it is pure milsim or how many LARP (or Laiv) elements you put into it; if it involves airsoft replicas actually firing BB's to take out opponents, it is an airsoft game. That's not an opinion, that is a fact.


What kind of airsoft game Berget wants to be, that is the question.


I had a decently long and very good conversation with Motörhead on MSN earlier tonight, and as we se it, Berget has two possible directions to go for next year. None of them are "wrong", but will appeal to different types of players.

1: They can go for the "worlds biggest airsoft game" jippo. 2000 players, and basically how it's been the last few years but dropping the larp and milsim-heavy parts. Maybe simplify things into two sides and relaxing the uniform requirements for both to get them evenly sized. Has the potential to be pretty action heavy, I think.
I would maybe attend this game myself, but not for the game experience. For me, it would be more like an airsoft festival.

2: Make it a Milsim game. Max 1000 players. No "Berget is an airsoft game with milsim elements" stuff. Just say it's a milsim game. Inform players beforehand that NATO players will get very milsim-heavy missions and might not get that much pure action, while whoever the other sides will be will get slightly more action and a looser command structure. More guerilla-like.
Demand from players on the NATO side that they act like NATO troops. Yes, this would mean fewer attendants, but maybe more serious?
On the other hand, demand from the other sides that they follow the uniform requirements. No NATO uniforms. I saw a lot of flecktarn with the reds this year as well as last year. Also some Norwegians.

Not that this ruined my experience or anything, but with stricter uniform requirements we might not need the coloured armbands. Making a guerilla kit is cheap and easy, so "it's all I had" is no excuse. If you can afford going al the way to Berget, you can afford a cheap guerilla kit, just mix in some of what you have.

Also, no game-off at nights. Coy and bn commanders would see to it that their men get enough sleep.
Give the Bn staff more freedom to come up with its own missions as they see fit and that the situation dictate. Maybe have the crew come in and act the part of superiors (brigade or something) if they want specific tasks done. Make stuff happen in-game!


Personally, the second option would be what I personally would go for, but then all are not me, and I'm not a BE crew member.

Milsim and LARP elements often go hand-in-hand. Nowadays, most military operations take place in urban areas which have civilians in them.
So to "sim the mil" you might need some level of LARP.

Unless you're going for a "NATO invades X-country: woodland warfare ensues" scenario, but if so, tone down the number of different sides. Stick to NATO and Liburanian Armed Forces or whatever.

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