General Questions: Berget 18

Discussions, Suggestions and Questions about upcoming Berget 18
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Arradin
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Re: General Questions: Berget 18

Post by Arradin » 27 Nov 2019, 11:42

Hornet85 wrote:
27 Nov 2019, 08:46
Are the commanders chosen for Begret18 already or will we be able to apply for commander? Normally you guys put the application out now in november :wink:

Want to apply for blue command.
They are not chosen yet, more info shortly :)
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Re: General Questions: Berget 18

Post by bjørkedal » 27 Nov 2019, 17:57

Regarding the Crow base logistics, is it possible to get some more practical information regarding the situation with water/power/toilets e.t.c?
Just wondering wether the Cult members and fanatics has to shit in a hole or a porta-potty?
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Re: General Questions: Berget 18

Post by Arradin » 27 Nov 2019, 18:03

bjørkedal wrote:
27 Nov 2019, 17:57
Regarding the Crow base logistics, is it possible to get some more practical information regarding the situation with water/power/toilets e.t.c?
Just wondering wether the Cult members and fanatics has to shit in a hole or a porta-potty?
This question has already been answered, the cult have Water, Power and toilets. They do not have showers and do not have Kiosk
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Re: General Questions: Berget 18

Post by bjørkedal » 29 Nov 2019, 14:53

Arradin wrote:
27 Nov 2019, 18:03
bjørkedal wrote:
27 Nov 2019, 17:57
Regarding the Crow base logistics, is it possible to get some more practical information regarding the situation with water/power/toilets e.t.c?
Just wondering wether the Cult members and fanatics has to shit in a hole or a porta-potty?
This question has already been answered, the cult have Water, Power and toilets. They do not have showers and do not have Kiosk
Okay, thanks for answering, i searched around on the forum here but could not find any info on it.
Guess i didn't look thoroughly enough
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Re: General Questions: Berget 18

Post by Panzergraf » 29 Nov 2019, 18:08

Arradin wrote:
07 Nov 2019, 21:57
I dont agree that vehicle are easy to be taken out, we adjust bavs hitpoints and how they work on a yearly basis based on feedback, and barely any feedback from last year was about vehicles being easily taken out.

Also we added the vehicle repair station as a test to balance things out
Not everyone is active on this forum...

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the issue isn't really the hitpoints, but the range of the BAVS AT-4. At night or on overcast days, you can easily get 100-200m range, way in excess of the range of a regular airsoft gun. And at that range, the beam is wide enough to hit an entire platoon sized element in one shot, even if spread out.

I've been on both sides of the equation here. At a previous Berget we halted the entire Blue mech force using a single AT-4, taking out their BV-206 (and a bunch of other cars) with 2-3 rapid shots, way before it even got close. Beep, beep, beep, and it was dead. It did feel really anti-climactic.

I'm fine with BAVS weapons being able to take out vehicles in one or two hits if it's a well executed ambush, like what an AT-4 is supposed to be used for.
It's also OK that you have some really long range heavy hitting anti tank weapons, like a TOW missile on a tripod or an anti tank gun, holding down important locations on the map. Maybe one or two such weapons in total in the entire game would be cool.
An AT-4, basically a plastic tube weighing 3 kilos or so, should not have that kind of range and firepower, I think.

Adding a vehicle repair station is nice, but spawn and repair times are still too long. 2 hours is a long time to sit in your base waiting for your car to respawn. 60 minutes repair time with an engineer (30 minutes with 2) is also a really really long time.

Unless the range of the AT-4 can be reduced (is that a hardware limitation?), at least reduce spawn and repair times.

1 hour spawn and 15 minutes to repair should be about right.
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Re: General Questions: Berget 18

Post by MiqaFox » 29 Nov 2019, 23:05

Panzergraf wrote:
29 Nov 2019, 18:08
2 hours is a long time to sit in your base waiting for your car to respawn.
Well... Get off your ass and walk like the rest of us for those two hours then. :P
The car respawn doesn't require attendance of the players, there is no need to just wait around.
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Re: General Questions: Berget 18

Post by Panzergraf » 30 Nov 2019, 01:16

Not gonna leave my car unattended when there are Swedes around!
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Re: General Questions: Berget 18

Post by Crapgame » 30 Nov 2019, 01:18

Im with Panzergraf on this one.
i believe that the BAVS has been overflowed. there is to many of them with too much strength and with the 40mm they are not even restricted wit ammo.
the really older AT4s at least had a 10shot before needing reload by a GM or HQ and range was limited.

At berget 16 i single handed took out both of the "tanks" with a 40mm BAVS... and i wasn't even hiding that well.
there is not even any burden to carry around a 40mm. even though people are told, here on the forum, to use a 40mm launcher on a gun or with a buttstock, i have seen plenty with a small pistol launcher... now that is a very big advantage.

a 60min repair on road is ridiculous since in berget a lot can happen in 60 minutes. The older rule was more fair in my mind. And the repairstation does not make that better since only certain units can lay them down and what unit, other than mech would like to haul around a pallet and a sign to help mech with a chance of maybe repairing some vehicles. and the time it takes to "build" said repairstation, i think with those options everyone will go back to base.
And 2 hours in base after maybe 10 minutes in the filed because an overflow of anti-BAVS out there?

and to comments on walking. share, but you are almost never back in the base within 2 hours of walking out from it, and you didn't spend a lot of money on building, bringing and using that vehicle in the game just to have it sitting in the base most of the time.
apart from putting money into repairing it, modifying it, towing or driving it to the game we also pay 55€ for renting the BAVS receiver and even more if we want to rent or buy a BAVS grenade or AT4 to be able to defend ourselves from enemy vehicles. So saying we should walk is being very ignorant to what we spend to have vechicles there, and most players are happy when we pick you walkers up and give you free rides back to base when you are tired, we could off course stop doing that aswell right. (and this is from one who has spent many bergets walking.)

Mech is supposed to offer a solution of a QRF or Hammer in tough situations, an advantage etc.
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Re: General Questions: Berget 18

Post by Panzergraf » 30 Nov 2019, 07:46

Panzergraf wrote:
30 Nov 2019, 01:16
Not gonna leave my car unattended when there are Swedes around!
But in all seriousness, as Crapgame points out, the long spawn time and heal time does not seem fair when you take into account how easily vehicles are taken out. And we don't bring them all the way to Berget just so they can sit in the base and look pretty while we play infantry.

To be fair, Arradin also has a point when he says some vehicles are impossible to take out without BAVS. Some up armour their turrets so thoroughly it's 100% impossible to take out the gunner. That's fine if you're talking about an actual tank or another Class 5 Heavy Armoured Vehicle, but I actually think there should be a bit more of a limit to how much turret armour regular Class 3 armoured vehicles can have.
Ours is open in the back, and only half-protected on the sides (gunner can kinda hide from side-shots if he thinks small thoughts :P ), and even from the front it's possible to take him out.
Previously we had only a gun shield, and the first few years we played as Mechanized the top MG had no protection at all. As the number of BAVS increased (and the number of times you could be healed before spawn was reduced from 2 to 1), we added more armour to make the most of it when we actually got into engagements where the enemy had no BAVS.
It's a bit of a weapons race, and I do agree that in game vehicles should not be invulnerable, even if I think BAVS levels have gotten kinda crazy.


Some more ideas, off the top of my head:
*Add a chance for BAVS shots to "miss", so maybe there's a 50% chance or so that a BAVS shot will just be ignored. A 50% chance to hit is still better than most airsoft guns can achieve.
*Maybe make Vehicle Respawn and Vehicle Repair times different for different classes of vehicles. A Class 1 light vehicle will respawn and be repaired quicker than a Tank.
Maybe 30 minute spawn/10 minute repair for class 1 (remember, these can not have armoured turrets, according to the rules),
1 hour/20 minutes for class 3, and 2 hours/30 minutes for a class 5.

This way it's not always better to have a higher armour class.
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Re: General Questions: Berget 18

Post by Edward » 01 Dec 2019, 09:39

Panzergraf wrote:
30 Nov 2019, 07:46
Some more ideas, off the top of my head:
*Add a chance for BAVS shots to "miss", so maybe there's a 50% chance or so that a BAVS shot will just be ignored. A 50% chance to hit is still better than most airsoft guns can achieve.
*Maybe make Vehicle Respawn and Vehicle Repair times different for different classes of vehicles. A Class 1 light vehicle will respawn and be repaired quicker than a Tank.
Maybe 30 minute spawn/10 minute repair for class 1 (remember, these can not have armoured turrets, according to the rules),
1 hour/20 minutes for class 3, and 2 hours/30 minutes for a class 5.

This way it's not always better to have a higher armour class.
Personally I like this idea. But maybe with changes like that when go higher in vehicle level, chance for 40mm to hit drops faster than for AT4, for example.
Also because this, higher level vehicles could really have longer respawntime. "Harder" to take out, but when taken out, stays out longer.
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Re: General Questions: Berget 18

Post by Verage » 01 Dec 2019, 11:16

I totaly agree on the fully closed turrets, the're hell to fight them as an infantry unit without bavs. We encountered a lot of those last year. We could only run for cover. It's not that bad if it's only one or two of these, but when they come rolling in with 3-4 of those, it's very hard.

Would be nice to have 1 open side to shoot the gunner.

A limited shots would change a lot too. You would think twice before shooting.

And to the Mech guys, we will do all we can next year to keep you in the game as long as possible!
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Re: General Questions: Berget 18

Post by Arradin » 01 Dec 2019, 13:41

This is a great discussion, and helps improve the game further!

We do listen to this feedback, and this is why we take small steps continiously and then evaluate. This time around its the field repair station.
To simply make repair time shorter or make vehicles take more hits etc is not the correct way becuase then you could never actually stop an convoy. it would take baby steps forward all the time, which wouldnt be fair. With the repair station you take smaller steps backwards instead of a complete reset back to base.

We have seen it over and over, and especially last year - Mechanized units simply going YOLO straight into enemy forces without backup and getting shot out. Such behavior should hurt gameplay for the vehicle with standstill time, just as an Infantry player who rush into enemy base has sa LONG walk back to respawn ahead of him/her.

We want to encourage teamwork and joint operations between units within a faction, and we hope that these Changes move the game in that direction
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Re: General Questions: Berget 18

Post by Arradin » 01 Dec 2019, 13:45

Regarding BAVS as a seperate topic

Im no expert on the technical side of the system but ive been explained the following:

How long you can shoot is not decided by the hardware. the laser beam shoots as long as it can reach depending on weather etc.
What we have changed, and continue to tweak is random hit/miss depending on the angle of the AT shooter towards the BAVS Reciever. Until today, these Changes have only been made on the Tanks. Nearly impossible to penetrate from the front, guaranteed from the back. etc.
We are talking about expanding this to all other vehicles aswell depending on the armor level of the vehicle, but nothing is decided
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Re: General Questions: Berget 18

Post by Mangs » 06 Dec 2019, 16:23

Hi there. I’m the guy who made the Berget YouTube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28pJx0qcLz4). I registered on this forum to chime in on my experiences regarding vehicles.

This year I was part of Team Flecktarn who had an armor-plated vehicle with 3 hit points, but honestly it might as well have been a transport, because getting us to our destination was the only thing it was good for. The moment we made contact with the enemy, our vehicle would quickly be taken out before we even had a chance to respond.

Here is a clip from my movie where I display how long our vehicle would last after getting repaired, and this was far from the worst case: https://youtu.be/28pJx0qcLz4?t=2174 (43 seconds is pretty generous by this year’s standards).

The one cool fight we got to experience was on the last day, where our signal-receiver malfunctioned, and we got to experience a whole 10 minutes of actual turret-combat as a result. Though once we found out our system had malfunctioned, we took our own car out of play and apologized to the other team for the inconvenience.

I do not think the hit points of the cars is the problem, but rather the insane range of the enemy BAVS. They have the ability to take us out from distances we are completely unable to respond to. The turret can only fire so far, and the range of the BAVS is far superior, especially at night.

It also doesn’t help that there are squads walking around with multiple BAVS, and when they just stand behind some trees shooting relentlessly, they burn through the hit points of our vehicles incredibly fast, often hitting multiple ones due to their area-of-effect cone.

At the very least give the BAVS some sort of ammo system. It doesn’t make sense that they can just be spammed limitlessly. Everything else at Berget is limited by ammo in some sense, why should the BAVS be any different? Some guy just standing behind a tree mass-clicking in the general direction of the vehicle isn’t exactly a good representation of how such weapons are supposed to function. Taking out a vehicle should require risk-taking and precision, not relentless spamming.

Reading that repair time is going to be increased at the next Berget makes no sense to me at all. The only time we ever experienced engineers being useful was towards the big battle where 2 civilian engineers were allowed to join with 2 of ours to push the repair time down to 1/4th of the regular time. On all the other missions we were at, there simply was no time for engineers to repair our vehicles normally (30 minutes is a long time when you’ve made contact with the enemy). We often found ourselves driving back to base because it was simpler and more reliable. If you put the repair time up to 60 minutes, you might as well just remove engineer’s ability to fix vehicles, because it will never be used to any real effect.

I think that having different re-spawn rates for different classes of vehicle makes a lot of sense. A transport should be able to re-join the battle quickly, while a tank should require lengthy repairs.

I understand the fear of making vehicles too strong, and making infantry feel useless, but I think that for those who work really hard to get their cars ready for Berget, it’s very disappointing when their vehicles feel weak and useless. I personally think vehicles adds a lot to Berget both aesthetically and gameplay-wise, and that you should incentivize more people to bring them.
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Re: General Questions: Berget 18

Post by Arradin » 06 Dec 2019, 17:03

Mangs wrote:
06 Dec 2019, 16:23
Hi there. I’m the guy who made the Berget YouTube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28pJx0qcLz4). I registered on this forum to chime in on my experiences regarding vehicles.

This year I was part of Team Flecktarn who had an armor-plated vehicle with 3 hit points, but honestly it might as well have been a transport, because getting us to our destination was the only thing it was good for. The moment we made contact with the enemy, our vehicle would quickly be taken out before we even had a chance to respond.

Here is a clip from my movie where I display how long our vehicle would last after getting repaired, and this was far from the worst case: https://youtu.be/28pJx0qcLz4?t=2174 (43 seconds is pretty generous by this year’s standards).

The one cool fight we got to experience was on the last day, where our signal-receiver malfunctioned, and we got to experience a whole 10 minutes of actual turret-combat as a result. Though once we found out our system had malfunctioned, we took our own car out of play and apologized to the other team for the inconvenience.

I do not think the hit points of the cars is the problem, but rather the insane range of the enemy BAVS. They have the ability to take us out from distances we are completely unable to respond to. The turret can only fire so far, and the range of the BAVS is far superior, especially at night.

It also doesn’t help that there are squads walking around with multiple BAVS, and when they just stand behind some trees shooting relentlessly, they burn through the hit points of our vehicles incredibly fast, often hitting multiple ones due to their area-of-effect cone.

At the very least give the BAVS some sort of ammo system. It doesn’t make sense that they can just be spammed limitlessly. Everything else at Berget is limited by ammo in some sense, why should the BAVS be any different? Some guy just standing behind a tree mass-clicking in the general direction of the vehicle isn’t exactly a good representation of how such weapons are supposed to function. Taking out a vehicle should require risk-taking and precision, not relentless spamming.

Reading that repair time is going to be increased at the next Berget makes no sense to me at all. The only time we ever experienced engineers being useful was towards the big battle where 2 civilian engineers were allowed to join with 2 of ours to push the repair time down to 1/4th of the regular time. On all the other missions we were at, there simply was no time for engineers to repair our vehicles normally (30 minutes is a long time when you’ve made contact with the enemy). We often found ourselves driving back to base because it was simpler and more reliable. If you put the repair time up to 60 minutes, you might as well just remove engineer’s ability to fix vehicles, because it will never be used to any real effect.

I think that having different re-spawn rates for different classes of vehicle makes a lot of sense. A transport should be able to re-join the battle quickly, while a tank should require lengthy repairs.

I understand the fear of making vehicles too strong, and making infantry feel useless, but I think that for those who work really hard to get their cars ready for Berget, it’s very disappointing when their vehicles feel weak and useless. I personally think vehicles adds a lot to Berget both aesthetically and gameplay-wise, and that you should incentivize more people to bring them.
All good feedback, But you completely forget the Field repair station and the other things that is being changed such as random chance that bavs shot dont "penetrate" target.

We do not simply increase the repair time, we actually lower it aslong as you use your engineers at the field repair station.
What we want to get rid of is frontline repairs which makes no sense whatsoever , the Convoy during friday was the PERFECT example:
No matter how many times defenders took out vehicles they just kept repairing and inching forward until they just overran the enemies. This, together with the fact that there are more vehicles than bavs in the field and that vehicles cant be taken out without bavs make it simply too powerful without counterplay.

We want vehicles to stop acting like front line tanks that just rush into enemy territory guns blazing ( which you even covered in your video.. :) )

Infantry without bavs who get shot out by invincible vehicles have a walk ahead of them and cant simply re-appear in the front line, because if a medic runs up they would be shot too. Vehicles who get shot out can either repair or head to a field repair station to "reset".
We will try that this year and then listen to feedback.
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